AV gas, 100LL, when race gas i no option?

There is a lot more to "specialty" fuel formulations than just octane rating. All the information on the specific properties and values of these fuels such as VP, Sunoco and others are available online. Research these properties and then decide what's best for your engine/setup/ riding, or if your engine should be modified for the fuel you are willing to pay for.
 

Philip Clemmons

Owner, P&P Performance
Location
Richmond, Va
It really depends on what the motor/combo is setup for. 100 LL is better than pump, but is not race fuel. If your setup is built for 110 octane, AV gas won't cut it.


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i run 100LL in my ski all the time.. its great fuel and the lead not only helps keep the combustion temps lower, it provides extra lubrication to the cylinders.. im sure it has a different specific gravity than other 100 octane fuels.. you can just tune your ski for it and if you decide to run it, only run avgas through it.. the characteristics being different than regular 100 octane could lean the mixture enough to possibly cause detonation..
 
im running 100LL with 205 psi compression. i love the properties of av gas and i have easy access to it at half the cost of actual race fuel. jetting can be a little funky due to the specific gravity but once you figure that out it runs amazing.
 
Location
Fl
Fresh 100 LL AV fuel starts out at 118 octane and tests out at over 100 over 2 years shelf life , it has deicing additive in it and maybe a little harder for the oil to mix . Dose it make as much power as oxygenated race gas ,,no but it can't be beat for the bang to buck ratio .
 

Draggingto

No Clue
Location
Brooklyn MI
I know that it is a long read, but there is a lot of good info in this post. It was taken from another forum. I had no part in this, just passing along the info.


Key points:
-100LL is not 100 octane as we rate it for pump gas (R+M/2). It is actually ~96 octane by that measure.
-Quality and consistency is better than pump
-Shelf life is better than pump.
-Cheaper because you are not paying Road Taxes. Legally it's like running red dye... no no on the street.
-Lower Specific gravity than pump (density) means you actually run leaner with the same jetting.
-Important one here! Lower flame speed than race gas. 100LL is designed for 3500RPM operation. If you run consistently higher than that you will be spitting unburnt fuel out the pipe. Most pre-run or play cars don't spend too much time over 3500RPM
Real info on Race Gas/Av Gas...
My experience comes from 7 years as the western states representative for 76 Race Fuel, Unocals 40 hours Advanced Products course, Working personally with Tim Wusz (senior performance products Rep for Unocal, Tim was responsible for Unocals race fuel development for 30+ years). I have also met and discussed fuels/motors with just about every engine builder in every facet of racing in the western United States. I also conducted Educational Seminars at the Fred L. Hartley Institute in Brea in which we would invite Engine Builders for a tour of Unocals testing facilities and do live octane tests on any gasoline they would choose to bring to the seminar. Included in the training we would demonstrate live tests how Distillation curve, Reid Vapor Pressure, Specific Gravity, Octane Rating, F;ashpoint, etc are conducted and the importance of these numbers. Some of you will remember me from contingency with my 76 Racing Gasoline hospitality trailer in the 1990's.
Through the 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's Av gas was the base product used for most racing "gasoline". VP, f&L, Turbo Blue, and Trick all used AV gas as the base product. They would buy a tanker (8000 gallons of Av Gas) than add other hydrocarbons/TetraEthylLead (TEL) to the base, drive around the block stopping and accelerating the truck/trailer until they felt the product was mixed well. Obviously this was not science, but it worked for most racers only because most racers use a higher rated octane than they actually need.
In the mid to late 1990's VP graduated to buying there own base product and do there blending of products in a much better fashion. Turbo Blue and Trick have since been bought Sunoco and are blended by Sonoco. Trick was purchased by Phillips 66 and has continued to be blended by Phillips 66.
The only two companies I am aware of who "cracked" there own base product is Sunoco and 76. And as we all know, 76 race fuel is no longer available, leaving only one true manufacturer of Racing Gasoline....Sunoco.
AV Gas has a MOR (motor octane rating) of 96, R+M/2 rating of 100, and ROM (Research Octane Rating) of 106.
AV Gas is lighter than racing gasoline thus more fuel/larger jetting is required. Jetted correctly you should not experience a lean burn at WOT.
I would not use AV Gas as a cleaner. The amount of TEL (2 grams/gallon) and other hydrocarbons makes it extremely carcinogenic. Same goes for all other racing gasolines.
Shelf life is NOT better. The reason pump gas won't last as long is because street gas has extremely lightend hydrocarbons to help your car start and idle. Racing Gasoline does not have these light end hydrocarbons needed for idle and starting, hence the reason race motors start and idle poorly.
Av Gas is NOT designed for low RPM motors. AV Gas is designed to not detonate/preignite causing detination. This would be the same design as race fuel. If you compare the "distillation curve" of AV Gas to Race Gas, you will find they are almost identical. The "distillation curve" controls the speed of burn across the combustion chamber.
You will only "spit" gas out the exhaust pipes if you run to rich or include a supercharger/turbocharger on your engine and "overdrive" the blower. Example would be the bitchin flames you see at the starting line of a drag race on normally aspirated engines and the long flames you see on all "blown" engines.
The LEAD (TEL) added to AV Gas is to increase the octane rating only. All heads these days have harden valve seats. There is no need for lubrication of the valve seats. All engines have come with harden seats since the late 60's.
AV Gas is not formulated for High Altitude. and will have very little, if not any performance differences vs racing gasoline. On the other hand, commercial grade fuels (87, 89, 92) will definitely enhance your performance due to the commercial fuel being oxygenated. The Oxygen enhancers added to commercial fuel is only for California Smog laws.
Advancing timing on your motor will definitely help with AV Gas and Race Gas due to its slow burn characteristics. On the other hand, be careful if your running commercial grade gasoline, more timing can cause detonation/preignition quit quickly.
AV Gas does not go BAD faster. It is extremely consistent. The MOR is only 96, whereas Sunoco Purple or VP C12 is 104. A rating of 96 is good for up to 10:1 on Steel heads and 12:1 on Aluminum heads with water cooling. Air cooled motors run much hotter.
Buying a higher octane for a $20-50K motor is the cheapest insurance available.
Remember this...OCTANE is a measure of a fuels ability to resist detonation/preignition. The higher the Octane number, the slower the fuel burns. Technically speaking 87 Octane fuel will develop more power than 118 Octane fuel. With this said, you should see gains in throttle response and HP by mixing commercial fuel and AV Gas/Race Gas. You now have some light end Hydrocarbons for throttle response and heavy hydrocarbons/TEL for detonation resistance.
Bottom line... use the most consistent fuel you can find and create horsepower by moving as much air as possible though the combustion chamber.
I have no reason to be bias here as I have moved on to much greener pastures. See you on the race course.
Good Luck,
Steve Poole
 
i quickly scrolled thru that and instantly saw the incorrect statement that all heads had hardened valve seats since the late 60s. i know for a fact that no pony muscle cars came with seat inserts in the late 60s or early-mid 70s. when i find one statement to be incorrect, it makes me wonder how accurate the rest of the info is. if you cant dazzle em with brilliance, baffle em with BS
 
Key points:
-100LL is not 100 octane as we rate it for pump gas (R+M/2). It is actually ~96 octane by that measure.

....

AV Gas has a MOR (motor octane rating) of 96, R+M/2 rating of 100, and ROM (Research Octane Rating) of 106.

So is AV gas R+M/2 100 or 96 octane? Was Steve Poole misquoted or is this just mis information from the source?

As I understand it the second statement is true. Just curious if the first statement was from the original author or was misquoted somewhere along the way.


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remember also that octane rating can be trifled with. the fact that people are using e85 for automotive race gas alternative is great for cost but it hides knock. so when choosing alternative fuels please be sure to do research and work with someone experience in said type of fuel.
 
Fresh 100 LL AV fuel starts out at 118 octane and tests out at over 100 over 2 years shelf life , it has deicing additive in it and maybe a little harder for the oil to mix . Dose it make as much power as oxygenated race gas ,,no but it can't be beat for the bang to buck ratio .


And now is the time to buy bulk while the price is down..... 4.65 at some local FBO'S in Gawga that is
 
Location
Fl
Ya the Middle East has knocked oil down to $60 something a barrel to keep the oil shale wells in the USA from cranking up , most of them need $80 plus to be profitable . Time to buy a few thousand gallons .
 
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