62t 61x reverse engineering/billet machining

[BallsJohnsonDance]

This is something very worth pointing out!
While the guys that truly care admit to “Not Knowing” So not to mislead you in your work thinking its gospel.
There is a lot to be said to that. In the contrary, there is a tremendous amount of really bad info Spread via all forms of internet postings and especially youTube. Some of this has been offered to the OP here in this thread.
Please, before you take this hard work to the next level, Verify what parts of it you want to use?
In my years of building and dealing with performance motors. I see much of what the general community thinks is true? Is in reality, passed down poor, misleading Information. Many base what they do off it, and find themselves with poor running, unreliable setups. Please don't make that mistake with your re-engineered parts. I like your desire to build something of value to this community. I would enjoy nothing more that to see you succeed! Be Smart!


Ski ya, Paul

I am aware of the arm chair engine builders Thanks for support. This is going to be a long project. The b pipes are going to get expidited by my buddy in kentucky because i sense a more urgent need, plus i am sure i will be able to find testers a bit easier!!! i will try to keep every informed as this progresses, however there are times like this were i am just waiting on a pipe in the mail. Here over the next month i will start slowy modifying the reed angle and ports on my stock model and posting for discussion. Please be patient and continue to try to answer my ignorant questions! Thanks for all the input you guys have given me so far. BTW one thing that really irritated me a my partner into doing this is the sheer cost and extremely low quality of machined/welded jet ski parts. It seems like there is a very large disconect between modern manufacturing processes and two stroke engine building. I dont want to point fingers but i look at some of the products on the market and the price they go for and its just hurting this sport. I should not have to make my own motor and pipe to get a ski at a reasonable price, the disdain for customers that certain companies are exhibiting is just horrible and doing nothing but hurting this sport. I look at some of these parts and just think that most of the customers that buy CNC machines from us would be returning them if the parts that came off look the way alot of jet ski parts do. No way i am wiating a year and paying 880$ for a pipe that was made with a crappy pattern, machined by a high school student, and welded by a middle school student.

 

[Jcary85]

great point @Jr. - take my advice with a grain of salt as well! I'm certainly no expert nor have I put together a lot of engines. To that point though, you probably have Paul - what are your thoughts on the epoxy finger ramp thing?

 

[Jcary85]

I am aware of the arm chair engine builders Thanks for support. This is going to be a long project. The b pipes are going to get expidited by my buddy in kentucky because i sense a more urgent need, plus i am sure i will be able to find testers a bit easier!!! i will try to keep every informed as this progresses, however there are times like this were i am just waiting on a pipe in the mail. Here over the next month i will start slowy modifying the reed angle and ports on my stock model and posting for discussion. Please be patient and continue to try to answer my ignorant questions! Thanks for all the input you guys have given me so far. BTW one thing that really irritated me a my partner into doing this is the sheer cost and extremely low quality of machined/welded jet ski parts. It seems like there is a very large disconect between modern manufacturing processes and two stroke engine building. I dont want to point fingers but i look at some of the products on the market and the price they go for and its just hurting this sport. I should not have to make my own motor and pipe to get a ski at a reasonable price, the disdain for customers that certain companies are exhibiting is just horrible and doing nothing but hurting this sport. I look at some of these parts and just think that most of the customers that buy CNC machines from us would be returning them if the parts that came off look the way alot of jet ski parts do. No way i am wiating a year and paying 880$ for a pipe that was made with a crappy pattern, machined by a high school student, and welded by a middle school student.

AMEN! jet ski parts are pretty much ALL crap. I've not received one part from a manufacturer in the jet ski world that I was happy with. The crap customers put up with in this sport is unfathomable. In no other aspect of my life would i EVER be ok with the complete crap customer service and quality in this hobby. (sorry for the tangent)

 

[Storbeck]

I

i understand that. I an not going for big power. I am machining this for a CNC machine tool trade show. I plan to use my demo parts instead of throw them away. I qm not trying to sell anyone anything or start a company... simply what changes would you make?

Is this no longer the case?

 

[BallsJohnsonDance]

Is this no longer the case?

This is still the case for me, my partner in kentucky also loves skis and is pissed he cant find superjet or parts to build a decent one for a reasonable price. If the parts turn out well and there is demand for them my parnter will be machining them for sale and charging material + 120$ per hour for machine time. we are thinking we can machine a set of cylinders in about 2 hours for example. and of course this is only if it works!!!!!

 

[BallsJohnsonDance]

AMEN! jet ski parts are pretty much ALL crap. I've not received one part from a manufacturer in the jet ski world that I was happy with. The crap customers put up with in this sport is unfathomable. In no other aspect of my life would i EVER be ok with the complete crap customer service and quality in this hobby. (sorry for the tangent)

As a manufacturing engineer it is disgusts me beyond belief. Real machine shops with real know how and investment would laugh at alot of the parts i see people bragging about.

 

[BallsJohnsonDance]

i saw some of the recent b pipes that shipped, man they looked horrible. I dont get it, the only explanation is terrible craftsmanship and what i read as a disdain for customers. In a real machine shop you would only let parts leave the building in that state if you were sick of that customer and no longer want the buisness, ive seen it happen before(purposely making bad parts to lose a pita customer). Thats the issue i have with the pipe situation, however there is another glaring issue, price. These companies are greedy like i have never seen in manufacturing before.

 

[BallsJohnsonDance]

seeing people on the everything standup fb page so dissapointed after waiting a year and have those dog turd parts show up really pissed me off. If nothing else we will be making mani's and headpipes soon. Does anybody seen an issue with clamshelling and welding the headpipe out of billet? similar to the way the chamber is made but welded together from two precision machined parts. Please let em know.

 

[BallsJohnsonDance]

Ive discussed with my partner and anything we do make and sell will quoted like any other CNC job, material+setup time+Machine time.

Here is his website: https://www.cocksstuntparts.com/

Please do not contact him about ski parts yet, however if you would like something, anything, scanned and machined feel free to contact him for a quote.

 

[waxhead]

the filling of the rips is to help support the bridge you build to try and fire the mixture over the top of the crankshaft. The windage from the crankshaft helps reduce power so this is what we are trying to stop. Have a look at a late model set of polaris cases and you will like what you see. The issue you are going to have is that the crank doesnt not get to move in location and if you make the intake higher then the entire engine will be taller. this is going to make clearance issues

 

[BallsJohnsonDance]

the filling of the rips is to help support the bridge you build to try and fire the mixture over the top of the crankshaft. The windage from the crankshaft helps reduce power so this is what we are trying to stop. Have a look at a late model set of polaris cases and you will like what you see. The issue you are going to have is that the crank doesnt not get to move in location and if you make the intake higher then the entire engine will be taller. this is going to make clearance issues

I am already noticing this, i can adjust a little but it doesn not look like ther is much room. Whatever i change i will be able to compare to stock since its already modeled. no reason to play with it a little.

 

[waxhead]

Im interested to know what software he is using to make the mesh a solid on the drawings

 

[Mobile Chernobyl]

Waterduck customs makes a few clamshell headers like you are thinking about possibly.

On the feasibility of adapting the cast Factory header design to a clam shell design? I don't know on that one - definitely require some DFM analysis. They bolt their shells together as well - so welding may not be required.

https://www.waterdawgkustomz.com/gp800bb.php

 

[BallsJohnsonDance]

Im interested to know what he is using to make the mesh a solid on the drawings

I am manually drawing the solids and using the mesh for reference, no one button convert to a good surface available yet! Geo magic is the closest thing so far. Power shape is what i use because of there ability to dynamic section the mesh then create 2d wireframe on the edge of the sectioned mesh. essentially i am creating 2d nurbs profiles, or composite curves, then drawing true line/ arc geometry over the nurbs splines(more time you spend the better the result) i am then taking my true geometry to create solids for boolean operations.


This has been a decent amount of work, that is why i have not just given these drawings away for free, if it was just click a button and done you would all have the files already! The best tactic for tackling a cad project like this is to focus on one feature until it is perfect, dont be afraid to delete start over. once you get one feature perfect it is DONE, then move on to the next. eventually you will be done.

It takes forever thoug, super time consuming and not many people have the patients for it.

 

[BallsJohnsonDance]

Waterduck customs makes a few clamshell headers like you are thinking about possibly.

On the feasibility of adapting the cast Factory header design to a clam shell design? I don't know on that one - definitely require some DFM analysis. They bolt their shells together as well - so welding may not be required.

https://www.waterdawgkustomz.com/gp800bb.php

The factory head pipe is not clamshelled, the chamber is, have the bolted chambers together as well?

 

[waxhead]

I am manually drawing the solids and using the mesh for reference, no one button convert to a good surface available yet! Geo magic is the closest thing so far. Power shape is what i use because of there ability to dynamic section the mesh then create 2d wireframe on the edge of the sectioned mesh. essentially i am creating 2d nurbs profiles, or composite curves, then drawing true line/ arc geometry over the nurbs splines(more time you spend the better the result) i am then taking my true geometry to create solids for boolean operations.


This has been a decent amount of work, that is why i have not just given these drawings away for free, if it was just click a button and done you would all have the files already! The best tactic for tackling a cad project like this is to focus on one feature until it is perfect, dont be afraid to delete start over. once you get one feature perfect it is DONE, then move on to the next. eventually you will be done.

It takes forever thoug, super time consuming and not many people have the patients for it.

Yes iI have done the ocasional cad work my self. I have played with geomagic myself to try and take the parts from my scanner to working drawings, it is a major operation. I think people think you scan straight to a working drawing but its not that simple

 

[Storbeck]

I'm not sure if you're aware that the factory pipe head pipe is waterjacketed. I don't think you could do it by welding together two pieces.

I'm trying to wrap my head around the idea that machining a very complex shape from billet then welding it is a better way to make this than a casting.

I guess I gotta go back to the thing about not really knowing.

 

[waxhead]

I don’t think my scanner is all that great either

 

[BallsJohnsonDance]

Waterduck customs makes a few clamshell headers like you are thinking about possibly.

On the feasibility of adapting the cast Factory header design to a clam shell design? I don't know on that one - definitely require some DFM analysis. They bolt their shells together as well - so welding may not be required.

https://www.waterdawgkustomz.com/gp800bb.php

I'm not sure if you're aware that the factory pipe head pipe is waterjacketed. I don't think you could do it by welding together two pieces.

I'm trying to wrap my head around the idea that machining a very complex shape from billet then welding it is a better way to make this than a casting.

I guess I gotta go back to the thing about not really knowing.

i am aware they are waterjacketed, I am not sure it would be a better way, i have not yet held a fpp b pipe in my own hands, only pics. I am just trying to think outside the box. Casting would be the more efficient method of manufacturing, however a clamshell method would not require a patterns or the process of actually casting. we can easily automate machine processes, thats what CNC is. Automating casting is a different story. The more i automate, the more the price drops. so welding or casting, they both have there drawbacks. We may make a pipe drastically different from the FPP due to manufacturing limitations, we will see. This project started with a 701, which i knew i could model and scan. when i discovered the whole FPP customer service quality
thing a few weeks ago i decided to scan a pipe and work from there. we will see where this all leads.

 

[waxhead]

Something like this you mean, it was taken from a scan