Super Jet Abnormal Starter Draw?

[Iland Trader]

Attempted first start on my newly refreshed 710 motor, among the new stuff is a used oem starter. My dead starter was the catalyst for the rebuild that lead to me discovering leaks in the case lines...it was all downhill form there.
So cranking for over 7 seconds produced smoke from the battery cable lead between the starter and the battery terminal- I was astonished. All connections were checked twice before install and then verified in place after the smoke cleared, not like there is much electrically to these. The wire sheathing was melting of course. The positive cable was cool to the touch as expected.

My midtronics meter shows a 40A draw without plugs and a 110A draw with the plugs in 110 sounds like a lot to me withotu any baseline for starter amperage draw. My new compression only dialed in at 175psi. My brother inlaw's Polaris Octane sitting next to my SJ showed an average of 60A during the crank with plugs in the holes.

Any thoughts?

 

[Matt_E]

What's the condition of the battery & ground cables and the terminals? That's where I'd look first.
The no-plugs draw sounds okay. A no-load new starter draws about 20A (bench test, not even in the motor)

 

[Freakrider]

ADD a redundant ground and test: use two ends of negative side jumper cables, one to neg batt and other to a head bolt...

Also as a side note with a primer you should not have to crank motor 7 seconds, it should fire in 1 or 2 seconds primed...

report back...

 

[Iland Trader]

All terminals are clean and in excellent condition. Battery is new 2 months ago and tested perfectly on my midtronics battery tester. I'm a pound of prevention kind of guy- i thought I made sure all was well down there.

 

[Matt_E]

All terminals are clean and in excellent condition. Battery is new 2 months ago and tested perfectly on my midtronics battery tester. I'm a pound of prevention kind of guy- i thought I made sure all was well down there.

What about the cables themselves?
IMO, even with abnormally high starter draw (which yours really isn't), the cables should not be smoking. Measure the resistance of each cable.

 

[Iland Trader]

Alternative ground path via jumper cable from battery terminal to head bolts = 107A with main ground cable removed from terminal. Same problem.
Also, i dont have a primer bulb still using the choke. Fuel issue is secondary I can sort that out i think, but i can see fuel moving through the sight glass on the filter

Just to be clear, I believe the cables are smoking from the heat build up of the amperage. Forget for a moment the duration of the cranking, with that removed there is still a major problem with the heat in the cable.

 

[Proformance1]

From my past year I smoked 5 batteries,so guess where im going to suggest you start. Not sure how hard you ride, Back flops etc, but I craked a plate iin my 2 week old AGM battery and it charged fine read 12.5V on meter and did the same to the motor. Always take another battery from another running ski and test. I even had a bad brand new battery out of the box this year. Not saying this is your issue but...

 

[KTM434]

I will assume its either a bad starter or bad cables and I will explain.


Always diagnose a problem with a jump pack or charger connected to your battery just to rule that out. With that said I imagine you spun the engine over by hand with the plugs out before dropping it in the ski so I will assume there is no binding or rotational resistance internally. Also I am assuming you spun the midshaft coupler by hand to eliminate a possible swollen wear ring clamping against the impeller preventing the impeller from spinning freely.

So starting from there I agree with Matt_E and cables are pretty common... they may look good and may even measure with minimal resistance through the cable but once you put a load to them they fail so do a voltage drop test (basically put one test lead on one side of the cable and the other lead on the other end of the cable) keep your meter on voltage setting and crank the motor (you man need another hand) The reading on the meter is the difference in voltage between the two ends of the cable and that is your voltage drop. The higher your voltage drop the less voltage is actually making it to your starter and is being wasted in your cables.

If that all checks out I also would suspect a faulty starter. If your motor is ok and your battery and battery cables are ok I would suspect the starter. You could put one test lead on the negative battery terminal and the other test lead right on the positive terminal of the starter to see how much voltage is getting to the starter while cranking as well. If you are getting battery voltage to the starter (12.7v battery-14.5v jump pack) and its still cranking slow and drawing so much amperage that its melting your cables then you have a binding starter (still assuming your engine is ok and your impeller isnt binding on a swollen wear ring).

Also as a quick test you could disconnect the positive cable from the solenoid (the other end is connected to the starter) and connect it directly to the battery positive post to see if it cranks faster (you are basically jumping the starter and eliminating other inline possibilities). This eliminates a possible voltage drop accross the solenoid or the other positive cable.

Those are the tests I would start with, I hope that helps steer you in the right direction

 

[D-Roc]

It's the crusty oem starter syndrome. Lol

 

[D-Roc]

X2

 

[Iland Trader]

Cables huh? i would guess the crimp would be a fail point from prior experience with Yamaha outboards but i'm just going to yank the motor again and do this on a bench. The darn oem exhaust is just so clumsy. I'll check for voltage drop in the cables and will investigate the starter with straight leads as KTM434 described. I appreciate the input everyone, I'll let you know how it turns out in the next few days, I've got another project that needs some attention or thew wife will have my arse. Thanks again

 

[Iland Trader]

Hate to bump an oldish thread but hopefully this could help someone out later.
I pulled my motor, bench tested everything using jumper cables as an alternate electrical pathway (completely bypassed the SJ cables). Amperage draw with the plugs in was about 90A. Inspection of the ground cable showed the damage caused by the overheating, a nearly severed wire. 10 year old hull + saltwater 75% of the time= corroded oem cable in need of replacement. I Called up Jet Ski solutions for a new set of cables and i'm perfect again with 90A on motor with 175psi compression, John sells a nice set of cables that are really well put together with gluey heat shrink and lots of solder on the connector s thumbs up to JSS.
Also- finally got a b pipe- so accessing the starter is a lot less of pain now with the smaller manifold and I'm adding a primer kit to conserve cranking amps. thanks for the help everyone.

 

[KTM434]

I'm glad to help... I have a bum set of cables in my ski right now that I need to take care of too

 

[sjetrider]

I have noticed that some of these new startes come with the ground connection area painted, if its painted it will not ground correctly. Just a thought. Also, your cable could be defaulting somewhere other than the ends, I have one bad in center under the sheathing that baffled me.
Being a new starter I would also make sure your bendix is free and not lodged or hung up. The starter coild be struggling to turn a f'd up bendix.
Next step is the battery, could be jacked up but shouldnt be throughing too many amps, would most likely be an issue on the positive side not the ground.

 

[bart4274]

Glad you solved your problem a quick and easy test is to check voltage drops while cranking. Hook voltmeter, Bat Pos to Starter pos Crank and read meter. Anything over .3 v on meter indicates problem in wiring. .1v drop per connection usually. As well as ground at battery to starter casing. Or as other people suggested run good jump cables to direct conections. When solving elec problems i usually always start with grounds. Make sure you check for Green death on any other Connections.

 

[Iland Trader]

Thanks again to all who offered advice. I was definitely getting a voltage drop, there was so much resistance in the bad ground cable it was pulling amps like a short, sucking voltage down too. Green death is bad. For $60 bucks at JSS, this was a worthwhile fix that gave me reason me to inspect my ebox at the same time, preventative maintenance is good. Cranking RPM is now twice what it was with the bad cables 2 days ago and the Amp draw is 25% less without the wire fire. This whole problem happened over the course of some time, the ski sat for 2months with the bum starter before I had the time to pull the motor and then when I cahnged the starter I did the bendix, when I opened the flywheel cover I discovered a leak in the case line so 5 months since the starter went out I'm just getting it back in. It was hard to notice a difference between weekend rides- pretty easy to tell after 5 months.

So whats normal starter draw? my findings suggest 90A on a motor with higher compression, an octane we have with 140 psi pulled about 60A and as MattE said- starter on a bench (no load) pulled 20A

 

[bart4274]

90a is a bit on the high side but you should be alright. Factors that play apart in amps is Battery voltage, heat of conponents, resistance of cables. Heat causes resistance in electrics and increases amps. Low battery voltage will hugely increase amps and easily kills starters. Volts equals amps X resistance http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-ohmslaw.htm . A good test of the starting system, is check bat voltage before 12.6v, while cranking "no lower then 10V", and then recovery time it takes back to full charge 12.6v. If your checking Amps make sure Bat is Full charged and check while cold as well as hot. Also listen to the cranking "Flat spots, too fast, to slow, Consistancy of sounding the same every start".

 

[ArtMaybee]

Corrosion will move up a battery cable from the connectors. Making sure the ends are sealed is important. If you can see the conductor in a wire and it has a dark brownish look to it, resistance is going to be higher and the cables willl get hot. They can get hot enough to melt the conductor or catch fire. The more corroded, the more resistance they have and the hotter they get. As they get hotter resistance increases even more.

If you experience a hot battery cable it will almost always be hot due to resistance in the wire and should always be the first thing to check. When troubleshooting amp draws follow the heat. The hot spot is most likely the problem.

Everything I've seen that jss sells has been top-notch but I question the soldered battery cable lugs. There are good reasons why OEM cables aren't soldered. When soldered, the solder can wick up into the conductor. This doesn't sound like a problem at first thought but can be. The solder makes the cable ends lose their flexibility so the conductor can break if subjected to enough force or vibration. Sure, the lug could break too but at least you know when a lug breaks. But those will flex some before breaking. If the conductor startst to break under the insulator.. then you will have a problem that's harder to find.

Is it soldered because the proper lug crimper is on the terribly expensive side? A cable lug crimped with the proper crimper and dies is not improved by adding solder.then if sealed with the sealant type heat shrink the connection is water tight.

I just wouldn't want to sell battery leads that use soldered lugs.

 

[Matt_E]

High quality marine cables are typically tinned and have soldered lugs. Done right, they'll last much longer than non-tinned, non-soldered.
Been there, done that.

 

[Freakrider]

High quality marine cables are typically tinned and have soldered lugs. Done right, they'll last much longer than non-tinned, non-soldered.
Been there, done that.

X2... I make my own from tinned wire and solder them, I also run a redundant ground to the case just to beef up the connection.