Big Li batteries shred starters

[CARBONX2]

I went with 24-cell AG to be sure I would have plenty of juice.
This is what it does to oem and generic starters within a month, armature tries to go through front cover, bends washers, which in turn short out the windings

 

[x2mafia]

So what your saying is your in the market for a more powerful battery?????!?

 

[CARBONX2]

No, have found that the front washer needs to be stronger.
Most people only use 12 or 16 cell, so won't see this kind of carnage

 

[x2mafia]

I was kidding

 

[Jakobi86]

12 volts is still 12 Volts... Shouldn't matter how many cells you have. If your pushing more than 12 volts, then I cans see why you have the damage you have


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[OCD Solutions]

Depends on how they wired the cells together. Most multi cells are wired with a combination of parallel and series connections so all it takes is for the circuit to change, (open/short) in the right spot and you could have 24VDC. More cells gives you more fault current as well so when things do go wrong, the effect is much more dramatic.

I would challenge that the issue is with that particular battery.

Here's a 16 cell circuit, couldn't find a 24cell.

 

[x2mafia]

But can't you put to much amperage through something as well?

 

[Jakobi86]

You can't "push" amperage through anything. It's dependent on the over all condition of the device... A perfect starter might only draw a few Amps regardless of the total ampacity of the battery. Now a starter with bad bearing or high compression will draw more (warm cables after long cranking) and a locked starter will draw the max ampacity of the battery which will end up in a fire somewhere in the circuit. Now it's possible to feed something too much voltage and it will take it, for awhile, and then you'll get what happened in the picture above


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[CARBONX2]

Took the battery off charge a few hours ago, just measured it at 13.51V. Is it possible the voltage somehow goes higher during cranking?

 

[Jakobi86]

If it's trying to push through the front cover that hard, then my thinking somehow your stater is turning into a solenoid with the way it wants to push out. I also wonder how it can push that far out and still stay connected to the brushes. If voltages do go up during cranking, I'd think that's a defect in the battery


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[speedysprocket]

Is it possible the voltage somehow goes higher during cranking?

That would be quite the miracle and break through in energy!
Sound more like you had a bad starter or something else was not working properly and causing the armature to try to escape its housing...

 

[OCD Solutions]

That would be quite the miracle and break through in energy!

Unlikely yes, but it would be no miracle or break through in energy. Electrical 101 actually, (basic theory covered off in 1st year electrical training).

Just about all rechargeable batteries are comprised of individual 1.2VDC cells wired in series/parallel to achieve the desired output. You want more voltage, you add more batteries in series. You want more current, you add more batteries in parallel. Virtually every battery is some form of this configuration.

Now, having said that, I still don't see a plausible scenario where it would actually happen where the result would be an increase in voltage. A good engineer would have seen to that.

 

[speedysprocket]

Unlikely yes, but it would be no miracle or break through in energy. Electrical 101 actually, (basic theory covered off in 1st year electrical training).

Just about all batteries are comprised of individual 1.5VDC cells wired in series/parallel to achieve the desired output. You want more voltage, you add more batteries in series. You want more current, you add more batteries in parallel. Virtually every battery is some form of this configuration.

Now, having said that, I still don't see a plausible scenario where it would actually happen where the result would be an increase in voltage. A good engineer would have seen to that.

You're saying it's plausible for an established battery pack to increase its voltage output when a load is applied, and then go back down when the load is removed...?

 

[DAG]

 

[bird]

A Battery is multiple Cells put together. Batteries are multiple Battery(s).

Increasing the voltage on a DC motor does two things. Increases RPM (rpm/volt) or Fries the armature windings due to overworking the motor(red line essentially)

Resistance is constant for a DC motor until it heats up or stalls. That means it won't pull more Current than rated, unless you are constantly cranking. (5 second crank, then wait 25 second, try again)

How old was the starter/bendix?

 

[OCD Solutions]

You're saying it's plausible for an established battery pack to increase its voltage output when a load is applied, and then go back down when the load is removed...?

Plausible yes, likely no.

To be clear, I'm not saying this is a normal function of any/all batteries. but I am am implying the possibility that this particular battery has an internal flaw or fault that may permit it to happen in this case.

Where I work, the impossible occurs at least once a year so you learn to keep an open mind about such things.

 

[CARBONX2]

Multiple starters destroyed, oem and generic, so can't be starter's fault. The bent front washer shorts the armature before the pickups can come out of the brushes

 

[bird]

Do you have a Induction DC Ammeter? I got one from Sears for $50, you can measure the amps while cranking without breaking the circuit.

Try measuring the Amps while cranking with two different batteries, the Li and a old Gel/AGM.

 

[OCD Solutions]

Me and a coworker spent hours researching this topic last night and couldn't come up with a single instance of a battery, lead or Lithium, outputting more than rated voltage. We also analyzed the internal battery cell connections and couldn't find a way possible for the configuration to change enough to raise the voltage either so we are done on that topic and moving on.

If it has to be the battery, our best summation is that the low internal resistance of the lithium battery, combined with the large CCA allows much more current to flow than a conventional setup. The starter doesn't draw more than it should, just more than it would from a stock setup. It may not even be for long enough to record on a meter but rather just the initial inrush of current when the starter is first energized. The extra kick is slamming the washers and moving it a little bit with each start until it's finally bent enough to cause a short.

In theory, a battery is a battery and bigger is never an issue but Lithium is a new technology and differs from lead acid in many regards.

I learned quite a bit last night researching this so it was a great exercise.

FYI, standard open circuit voltage for rechargeable cells is 1.2 volts, charging voltage is 1.5. Lithium cell voltage is 3.2 open and 3.6 charging.

 

[Proformance1]

Have a chicken or egg scenario on a new lithium with new oem starter as well. Jurys still out until further notice. So far i know brushes are shot. Battery is only producing 9v under load. Higher compression, 10 mm stroke. A bunch or timing. Kick back on start took out everything in its path. Fun day. Working with electrical gurus at work. We design and manufacture electrical motors and equip. So far all we know is higher voltage should be better except for added heat. Short starter times so that should not be it. If battery went lower, then the amperage could go higher causing brushes to melt. More details later.

Have another friends ski running same type of battery, only 5V on start up. Both new batteries last month. Mine has 5 charges on it.