Other (Carb) needle valves and pop off arm springs, how do they correlate to each other?

edmoto

Center of nowhere
Location
Wyoming
I tried search without seeing what I am looking for. If there is a thread on the following question, please post a link for me. Thanks.

How would you describe the relationship between needle valve sizes and pop off springs? Talking about a Mikuni Super BN carb. For example:

You lower pop off by changing the arm spring from one strength to another (80 gram to 65 gram for example)... Would this be offset by lowering the size of the needle valve, too? Or to put it another way. Spring goes from 95 gram to 80 gram (20 psi to 17 psi per the charts available), but then you change the needle valve from 2.3 to 2.0 (17 psi back up to 21 psi per the Mikuni charts). How would the fuel regulator system be working differently if the end result is roughly the same psi?

Basically, how does the needle valve and pop off spring work in conjunction with each other?

I am working to reduce or eliminate a bog off of idle up to about 1/3 throttle. I've checked all the other usual culprits for bogs (air leaks, water leaks, electrical, etc.) Because I have a low hour stock motor, never touched until a wet pipe and Prok's were put on, that I feel it is the jetting that needs to be tweaked before blaming anything else. The high speed and low speed jets (i.e. main and pilot) were changed by a shop per Mikuni's jetting cheat sheet, but not pop off/NS. I'm not going to fool with the 3 water screws on the wet pipe until I address the pop off/NS settings. I feel the high flow exhuast and low restriction Proks are making the pop off arm stay closed to manifold pressure until that pressure overcomes the stock settings. I'm sure it doesn't help that I'm at 4800' elevation where I ride. So I'm going to adjust pop off (per Mikuni, this forum's posts, using Mikuni pop off gauges, plug readings and motor speed in water), but I'm foggy on the relationship of NS valve to arm spring strengths. Any advice?
 
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Location
dfw
Needle port diameter plays a role because pressurized fuel is trying to push it open. Without fuel pressure we would be concerned with the spring tension only.
 

edmoto

Center of nowhere
Location
Wyoming
Augustaf- I've got the 2010 Hot Products Catalog and saw that info, thanks. That is where I'm going to pick part numbers to order from a dealer the different spring and needles from.
Kevbo- Understood, thanks.

I've reread the Mikuni manual. It looks like to reduce a bog (lean) condition from idle to 1/4 throttle, you start with the arm spring and reduce its weight. Then adjust the needle jet AFTER changing the spring to fine tune the throttle response from that point. The key point being spring FIRST, needle SECOND. Spring to get the fuel delivery better and for final adjustments change the needle jet for best results.

I'm wondering, as I'll be getting into the carb later today, has anyone found a combination of settings that work for 4800' elevation (or thereabouts)? I'm curious to see other settings regardless of engine mods, just to get a sense of what is working for people. Kinda puts me in the ball park for my tweaking.
 

Mark44

Katie's Boss
Location
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Augustaf- I've got the 2010 Hot Products Catalog and saw that info, thanks. That is where I'm going to pick part numbers to order from a dealer the different spring and needles from.
Kevbo- Understood, thanks.

I've reread the Mikuni manual. It looks like to reduce a bog (lean) condition from idle to 1/4 throttle, you start with the arm spring and reduce its weight. Then adjust the needle jet AFTER changing the spring to fine tune the throttle response from that point. The key point being spring FIRST, needle SECOND. Spring to get the fuel delivery better and for final adjustments change the needle jet for best results.

I'm wondering, as I'll be getting into the carb later today, has anyone found a combination of settings that work for 4800' elevation (or thereabouts)? I'm curious to see other settings regardless of engine mods, just to get a sense of what is working for people. Kinda puts me in the ball park for my tweaking.

This is wrong you only use the low speed adjuster to adjust idle only never to eliminate a low speed hesitation. You will read this in your Mikuni manual.
 

WFO Speedracer

A lifetime ban is like a lifetime warranty !
Location
Alabama
I would also like to add that you use the smallest needle and seat you can get away with to achieve the desired popoff pressure, straight out of the Mikuni handbook .
 

edmoto

Center of nowhere
Location
Wyoming
Mark 44: Maybe I used the wrong terminology. By needle jet, I meant needle valve (part #786-35015-size)... the part that is a component of the regulator portion of the carb under the arm (part# BN38/534). I see that the needle valve is composed of a seat and a viton needle, and I presumed I could simply describe those two parts by just saying "needle jet". But I get your point... the low speed adjuster is just for idle. I had not intended to play with that. The ski idles fine currently (funny aside; as I was ordering parts from a dealer moments ago, I was told to adjust the low speed from 7/8 out to 1 turn out for my elevation for the bog I have).

WFOSpeedracer: Thanks. I saw that in the manual also. I was curious, at the start of this thread, what would be the difference in how the ski behaves if I played around with springs and needle valve/seats such that I got the same PSI on pop off after exchanging springs and N/S's. But that is irrelevant now. The stock carb is already at 1.5 needle seat. Since the stock arm spring is 80 gram (black), I only have one choice to go lower on spring weights: 65 gram shiny silver. I ordered that, will put it in, and move on. Simply time to stop asking dumb questions, grab the throttle and go.
 
I adjust my idle with the idle stop screw. For a lean bog when first accellerating , I turn out the low speed adjuster. If the adjuster requires to be out more than 1 1/4 - 1 1/2 turns then install larger low speed jet (the small one) or lower pop off. What carbs are you working on?
 

WFO Speedracer

A lifetime ban is like a lifetime warranty !
Location
Alabama
I adjust my idle with the idle stop screw. For a lean bog when first accellerating , I turn out the low speed adjuster. If the adjuster requires to be out more than 1 1/4 - 1 1/2 turns then install larger low speed jet (the small one) or lower pop off. What carbs are you working on?

Not sure what your mods are but I would go with a 2.0 needle and seat if it is anything much more than stock, the smaller needle and seats are meant for use with much higher popoff pressures than you will be using for freestyle usage.A 2.0 needle and seat will give you more options on popoff pressure. One more thing the needles are all the same, its the opening in the seat that determines the size of the needle and seat combo.
 
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Mark44

Katie's Boss
Location
100% one place
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I adjust my idle with the idle stop screw. For a lean bog when first accellerating , I turn out the low speed adjuster. If the adjuster requires to be out more than 1 1/4 - 1 1/2 turns then install larger low speed jet (the small one) or lower pop off. What carbs are you working on?

If you are using your low speed adjuster to adjust for a hesitation you could experience the ski loading up at low RPM's. Idle stop screw is only used to maintain idle not set idle.

Mark44
 
Location
dfw
A 2.0 is the "one size fits all" needle port. It will allow springs to cover the whole useable spectrum and flow more than the pilot and main jets combined.
 

WFO Speedracer

A lifetime ban is like a lifetime warranty !
Location
Alabama
If you are using your low speed adjuster to adjust for a hesitation you could experience the ski loading up at low RPM's. Idle stop screw is only used to maintain idle not set idle.

Mark44


If what you say is correct then pretty much every OEM unit ever sold is jetted wrong, Yamaha's included.
 
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