650/X-2 couple of old 650sx ski need some help

[H1guy]

Hey guys/girls New to the forum. I actually checked out a few pwc forums before joining x-H2O. Anyways The story goes like this. I just had a couple of old Kawasaki 650sx jet ski's given to me. I'm pretty sure that they are 1990 from comparing pictures on the net. These things sat for several years. One was raced and the other is bone stock. So the deal is that my cousin gave them to me and has to find the papers for them. That's why I'm not 100% sure on the years. Anyways , I drained all the fluids. Cleaned the carbs. washed out fuel tank with fresh gas. Put all new lines on it. Premixed some fresh fuel and tried to start them. The first one that I tried was the stock ski. It fired right up and idled great. I was blown away by how nice it ran. So I threw on my jacket and went for a rip. It ran great even when I would wipe her out it would circle back and be running great. Ripped it for about 20 mins. Came back and let a buddy try it. After him my bro went to try it and it started running like crap and died. So we pulled the hood off and checked it out. Well the bilge stopped running and there was about three inches of water in the hull. So off came the carb. Cleaned and turned the engine over with the pluggs out and pulled the crankcase drain and turned over. Put all back together and now it won't run unless I am feeding it down the throat of the carb. So what would have changed? Or did I do the procedure wrong for a submerged ski?

Now on the the second Ski that was raced. This one I did all the same in going over it from being stored. But when I went to crank it over it almost stop's turning over when cranking. i pulled the plugs and they are soaked it what seems to be fogger oil (I hope). Tried to flush it out with some gas and cranking it over and over and it seems to never end. Is it possible that whoever maintained the race on put way to much fogger it and it seeped down int the crank? It turns over great for about 20 rpm's then slows to a stop.
Any ideas on what my next step is?
I have been thinking I will try to fix both and sell the two and save towards a superjet or sx-r800 But I will rip these ones for a while first.
Oh and Also the compression on the stock was 105. I know it's low but it should still run because it's the same after it not running.
Race is only at 120 psi. I am planning on getting the stock running to play with and rebuild the one that was raced

 

[Mdavies_02]

First and foremost, welcome to the X, glad to another Canadian on board.

For the stock ski, I am not sure what you did wrong putting it all back together, but I would have Never pulled it all apart just for afew inches of water in the hull. I have completely sunk my old 650SX (Riding with no hood on, with no glasses/contacts) Dumb idea.... Anyways, got her above water, turned on the bilge pump, primed the hell outta it and she started right back up. Just had to ride her hard to clean it out for a good 30 minutes. No issues.

Seems like you may have had water splashing into your carb, and all you needed to do was get the water out, and ride it till it cleaned itself out.

 

[dbattersby20]

On the back right part of the hull the last two digits should be the year of the ski. As far as the ski not running well or not starting at all...you just gotta start going through the check list - spark, compression, etc.. I'm assuming they're tuned right. Compression should be much higher than 105 and 120. I have a stock head on mine and it's at 148. If your race ski has an AM head most likely it should be around 175. If the stock 650 is only running if you pour fuel down the carb you may have something stuck in the carb, but you should figure out why its not pulling fuel through. With two skis there, you can do some swapping on parts to make one running ski possibly

 

[H1guy]

Thanks for the reply's. I found out that they are actually both 89 ski's, Thanks to dbattersby20.
The reason I took the carb off after finding the water in the hull was because it wouldn't run again unless we were manually feeding it gas through the throat of the carb. It's good to know that they can be sunk and restarted so quickly and easily though, thanks Mdavies_02.
I do realize that the compression is low but the ski ran great before and it had the same compression. It's a fueling issue for sure. I have taken the carb apart and completely cleaned it out again. This time I was at work and had compressed air and a parts cleaner. I did find that the low speed needle tip looked off. the very tip of it was slightly bent looking and has a ridge on on side of the tip about 1 mm from the tip. It almost looks like it suppost be be like that?
Does anyone know if I can buy a complete carb rebuild kit? I mean everything. Gaskets,seals,orings,needles,jets.
And also where is the best place to buy my parts for these ski's?

 

[Vumad]

The second ski with the endless oil in it...

Of course the oil is in the crank. It's a 2-stroke, the oil goes down there guarenteed. The issue would be that there is so much oil that air/fuel can't move through the oil into the cylinders.

Remove the plugs. Flip the ski up side down. Hold a rag below the holes and hit the start button. Do this for a few revolutions. Then close off one hole with your finger (which increases the output of the other hole) and turn it a few revolutions. Alternate this process until the crankcase is mostly dry.

Oh, and one more thing. Do not try to turn over that ski anymore if it is hydrolocking with oil. Air compresses, oil does not. Turning the ski over with oil in it will bend a rod or damage some bearings. This wont happen with the plugs out, so get the oil out before you turn it over anymore with the plugs in.

 

[Vumad]

Ski number one...

when you pulled the plugs did they appear milky or wet suggesting water in the motor? It's unlikely water remains in the motor now that it runs when you pour fuel in, but it may have just been coinicidence and you never had a water ingestion problem to begin with. It obviously has spark because it runs. That leaves compression and fuel/air. Your compression is obviously a problem, with is fixed with a hone/rings.

Check the fuel and fuel lines for water. Take the jets out and clean them with a tiny piece of wire, don't scratch them. Check for air leaks, those crank case drains are natorious for not closing and causing air leaks, which would have leaned out your motor perhaps too much to run. There's a few places to start.

105 is really low and I am not sure it's accurate to describe what you were doing with a stock 650sx with 105 compression "ripping". 105 may run but that motor is way past the point of needing a hone and rings. You may have just been lucky to have it running in the 1st place.

 

[dbattersby20]

I've ordered some thing from atlanticjetsports and watercraftsuperstore. You'll be able to buy a carb rebuild with gaskets and such but you'll have to order the needles and jets separately. Just google some of the items you're looking for and which has the cheapest shipping as well. A motor cycle shop make also have what you're looking for, but you may want to call or something first because it could be a long shot.

 

[suva]

Are you sure your compression tester is accurate and that you're using it correctly?

 

[H1guy]

I am pretty sure I am using it correctly . I only work on 4 cycle engine at work, But anyways what I am doing is pulling a plug. screwing the tester adapter in attatching the tester and cranking it over with the throttle opened . It is my old tester and is questionable since I brought it home from work and us my matco tester at work now. I am planning on bringing my known good tester home next week to test the compression again. I am also ordering a gasket kit off ebay and I will order new needles and jets for the one carb that looks bad. The other actually looks pretty good but will still get a gasket kit.
Vumad After the first time it stopped the engine I knew something was wrong and stopped cranking it with the plugs in the engine. I have hydrolocked my jeep several times offroading as well as my ATV so I have been through that before. I was mostly interested in finding out if it was something someone had come across before and had a quick solution. Thanks for the advice though it much appreciated.
If the crank seals were leaking would it still run when feeding fuel to the carb? I though that if the seals were gone that it wouldn't run at all. I am thinking that I might not be getting enough crankcase pressure to run the fuel pump sufficiently to feed the carb.


Thanks for all the reply's so far everyone I appreciate all the advice

 

[Vumad]

I am thinking that I might not be getting enough crankcase pressure to run the fuel pump sufficiently to feed the carb.

Exactly. Compression too low would mean intake velocity is too low for the venturi to work. Low compression = slow air = no fuel sucked into the air.

 

[H1guy]

Well a little update on these ski's. I have both running now. the stock ski is running great considering it has such low compression. I pulled the motor out of the ski that was raced and found that the crankcase drain was actually stuck and that is why I couldn't get the oil to drain when I pulled the lever for the drain. I ended up getting a cup and 1/2 of oil from the crank, exhaust and the manifold. it was so full that when I removed the reeds while the engine was still in the hull it started to poor out. Put the engine all back together after cleaning. I inspected the pistons and rings through the exhaust ports and they looked like they are in great shape. As for the lower compression number I am thinking that a cylinder hone and new rings along with new gaskets should bring it back up. The ski with the 100psi starts and runs awesome every time. The ski with 123 ans 125 psi starts and runs great as well. They both operate pretty good on the water as well. The plan is to do complete rebuilds this winter while they are in the basement.
A couple questions I have about these though are...
What kind of ride plate should I invest in? And what are the differences ?
What would be an ideal intake grate ?. There is a lot of weeds were I ride.
What about impellers as well?
Any other stuff that I can do to get these things to pull a little harder?
Any help is appreciated.

 

[H1guy]

No ideas or suggestions ?

 

[Vumad]

I had a ride plate that was similar to the hull shape and an ocean pro finned ride plate. I preferred the flatter ride plate. The finned ride plate hooked up very well and I couldn't break it loose. They both worked well but they had different intended uses. The flatter ride plate was more ideal for the way I liked to ride, but the finned could be better for you.

I still have both, pm if interested. I have a lot of 650 parts left over from building my X2, and am willing to part with most everything not bolted to my X2.

 

[H1guy]

Thanks for the input Vumad. I'm not sure what I am going to be needing at this time, but once I start ripping them apart to freshen them up I will keep you in mind for sure.
Any suggestions on intake grates? One ski has one that looks like it might be a top loader style grate and the other is a blue flat plate with one divider down the center, it's very open as were the other has two splines that have scoops on them. Maybe just one scoop. I'll have to look again.
Sometimes the one with the scoop design feels like it is slipping and cavitating big time. Not sure if the grate would do this, or if the impeller is damaged and the wear ring is screwed. Any thoughts ?

 

[Vumad]

I have several different intake grates. They all fit the SX and the X2 so I am keeping them all. I have stock plastic, which I've never used because it's stock and it's plastic. I have an aluminum 2 bar style even with the hull. A 2 bar style that hung about 1" below the hull (helps with lateral slide). A 2 bar with a scoop even with the buttom of the hull. I have another that I haven't tried yet.

My Favorite so far is the one that has the 2 bars front to back that stick 1" below the hull. Maybe this is why I disliked the finned ride plate, too much hook up. In either case, the depper bars w/o the scoop with a flat ride plate was my favorite. I didn't see any advantage in the scoop style. Scoop is extra drag which I disliked. It should reduce cavitation in choppy or foamy water but didn't seem to actually do that. Most of my time on the SX was flat water or chop.

 

[tom21]

Any other stuff that I can do to get these things to pull a little harder?
Any help is appreciated.

well if the compression is truly down a correct rebuild would help, also a milled head will bump compression and give you a little more snap. the only way reringing is worth the time is if the cylinders are still within specs and not scored. if you work on engines at work then you know the deal.

 

[H1guy]

Thanks for the input Vumad. I'm not sure what I am going to be needing at this time, but once I start ripping them apart to freshen them up I will keep you in mind for sure. Any suggestions on intake grates? One ski has one that looks like it might be a top loader style grate and the other is a blue flat plate with one divider down the center, it's very open as were the other has two splines that have scoops on them. Maybe just one scoop. I'll have to look again. Sometimes the one with the scoop design feels like it is slipping and cavitating big time. Not sure if the grate would do this, or if the impeller is damaged and the wear ring is screwed. Any thoughts ?

 

[H1guy]

Thanks Tom21 Ya I do know the deal. I have checked down the cylinders with a boarscope. They look pretty good. I will have my buddy that's a machinist check it over before I make any final parts purchases. I also read somewhere on here about re-torqing the heads because they are famous for loosning? and causing lower than normal compression, I believe it said 18 ft/lbs. This seems kinda odd to me but I will double check the torque this weekend.
As for the milled head. How much is sufficient ?

 

[Vumad]

Thanks for the input Vumad. I'm not sure what I am going to be needing at this time, but once I start ripping them apart to freshen them up I will keep you in mind for sure. Any suggestions on intake grates? One ski has one that looks like it might be a top loader style grate and the other is a blue flat plate with one divider down the center, it's very open as were the other has two splines that have scoops on them. Maybe just one scoop. I'll have to look again. Sometimes the one with the scoop design feels like it is slipping and cavitating big time. Not sure if the grate would do this, or if the impeller is damaged and the wear ring is screwed. Any thoughts ?

You double posted post #14 and post #17. I replied to you in post #15 so scroll up.

 

[H1guy]

Sorry about that. My computer has been acting up I didn't see your last post. I guess I will stick with the flat style for now on the main ski I ride. I did notice last night that the scoop style seems to really slow you down when you let off the throttle.