- Location
- Washington
So I was thinking about doing a essay on why 2 strokes shouldn't be banned for a "argument paper". What do you guys think? Any ideas on reasons why they shouldn't be banned?
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Other Essay on 2 smokes
- Thread starter mydixiewrecked
- Start date
- Location
- the jetski grave yard
because we think its the funnest $hit on the planet? dispite the fact that they pollute the air, pollute the water, waste precious natural resources that we are running out of and are dangerous, i cant think of a single good reason to ban them.
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- Location
- Washington
I was going more towards skis are being banned but outboard 2 strokes aren't
- Location
- the jetski grave yard
i dont think there is anywhere that says you cant ride a jetski but you can run this old roach outboard
- Location
- Farmington Hills, MI
So what you are saying is that this could work???
Vumad
Super Hero, with a cape!
- Location
- St. Pete, FL
If you are concerned about my lack of 'brevity', just skip this post rather than whining about the length of it. K, thanks.
I agree that it could be a great essay. I took 5 to write a few things on my mind about this subject. I elaborated some instead of just using bullet points because my stance on such a debate is much more political than just 'do 2-strokes smoke too much'...
Isn't what we are concerned about is the long term impact on the environment? How can that be judged by only placing a sensor at the tail pipe?
The infrequent use of a 2-stroke recreational motor has negligible impacts on the environment compared to the life cycle of a human being.
A few thousand years ago, the life expectancy was 25-30 years old.
A century ago, it was 52 years old.
Now, the life expectancy is pushing into the 80s.
People are living longer at an exponential rate. However, their level of reproduction has seen only a slight decline, and in many places has remain the same or has continued to increase.
When people died at 50, they were having children in their early twenties, a statistic that has changed only by a small margin. For population to remain almost unchanged, reproduction would have to be pushed back into the early 30s, but except in a few highly educated areas of the world, this fact goes unchanged.
During recent water shortages, a single person with no dependents was not allowed to wash their car, while a married couple with 4 children could continue taking 2 showers each day. It is obvious that the impact on water usage of the single person washing their car was far less than the family of 6 showering, but the car wash was banned, and the showering continued on.
While it may seem strange to compare showering to washing a car, the idea of the debate is freedom. The couple has the freedom to have 4 children, which has a large long term impact on the environment, while the single man who chooses to have no children is not allowed to wash his car, which has a very small short term impact on the environment. Later in life, each of these 4 children will purchase a 4-stroke car, each having 4-children, each purchasing cars, each clearing land for a home, each consuming, all producing a few emissions that add to be a great many.
If there was a true concern about the environment, then our primary concern would be to address the true underlying issue, which is growing over population. However, we choose to ignore the root of the problem and limit the individual freedoms of the minorities.
The idea of banning 2-strokes is based on the fundamental flaw of a democratic society, the largest group getting what they want. This debate is not about the emissions of 2-stroke motors. This debate is about a large majority of people who don't have a desire for 2-strokes, limiting the rights and freedoms of those who choose a different path in life.
While america is a democratic-republic, it was founded on the principal of freedom. Laws are made with the goal of preventing one person from interfering with the rights of another. Taking the rights of the few to cater to the many undermines the fundamental concept upon which our country was founded upon, freedom.
If a voter feels so strongly about the environment that they feel the 2-stroke motor should be strictly regulated, they should be demanding the same regulations on procreation. But this debate isn't about the environment, it's about limiting the rights of the few, because the many don't share the same interest.
Even if their individual actions have a slightly larger impact, these few have a lower overall life-long impact.
I agree that it could be a great essay. I took 5 to write a few things on my mind about this subject. I elaborated some instead of just using bullet points because my stance on such a debate is much more political than just 'do 2-strokes smoke too much'...
Isn't what we are concerned about is the long term impact on the environment? How can that be judged by only placing a sensor at the tail pipe?
The infrequent use of a 2-stroke recreational motor has negligible impacts on the environment compared to the life cycle of a human being.
A few thousand years ago, the life expectancy was 25-30 years old.
A century ago, it was 52 years old.
Now, the life expectancy is pushing into the 80s.
People are living longer at an exponential rate. However, their level of reproduction has seen only a slight decline, and in many places has remain the same or has continued to increase.
When people died at 50, they were having children in their early twenties, a statistic that has changed only by a small margin. For population to remain almost unchanged, reproduction would have to be pushed back into the early 30s, but except in a few highly educated areas of the world, this fact goes unchanged.
During recent water shortages, a single person with no dependents was not allowed to wash their car, while a married couple with 4 children could continue taking 2 showers each day. It is obvious that the impact on water usage of the single person washing their car was far less than the family of 6 showering, but the car wash was banned, and the showering continued on.
While it may seem strange to compare showering to washing a car, the idea of the debate is freedom. The couple has the freedom to have 4 children, which has a large long term impact on the environment, while the single man who chooses to have no children is not allowed to wash his car, which has a very small short term impact on the environment. Later in life, each of these 4 children will purchase a 4-stroke car, each having 4-children, each purchasing cars, each clearing land for a home, each consuming, all producing a few emissions that add to be a great many.
If there was a true concern about the environment, then our primary concern would be to address the true underlying issue, which is growing over population. However, we choose to ignore the root of the problem and limit the individual freedoms of the minorities.
The idea of banning 2-strokes is based on the fundamental flaw of a democratic society, the largest group getting what they want. This debate is not about the emissions of 2-stroke motors. This debate is about a large majority of people who don't have a desire for 2-strokes, limiting the rights and freedoms of those who choose a different path in life.
While america is a democratic-republic, it was founded on the principal of freedom. Laws are made with the goal of preventing one person from interfering with the rights of another. Taking the rights of the few to cater to the many undermines the fundamental concept upon which our country was founded upon, freedom.
If a voter feels so strongly about the environment that they feel the 2-stroke motor should be strictly regulated, they should be demanding the same regulations on procreation. But this debate isn't about the environment, it's about limiting the rights of the few, because the many don't share the same interest.
Even if their individual actions have a slightly larger impact, these few have a lower overall life-long impact.
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- Location
- Kennewick, WA
So all peoples need to do is stop pumping out a unit every nine months....I like the way you think.
Samsung Note II
Samsung Note II
I think you should research why "jet skis" are the target of banning and not just all boats. Is it because the income level of two stroke jetskiers? If you look at the income of big boats, (who put out more pollutants) you will see that they have friends in political positions and yet us standup riders, when you get down to it, we don't have any big political friends. Most of the save the plant types won't go after the Navy (huge polluter) just ask any squid and they'll tell you stories, or the shipping industry, or the best is the local yacht club. Ever looked at the water near a yacht club, its not that way from jet skis. But hey, all the "do gooder" types don't really accomplish that much but it makes them feel good, so they pick a small easy target---jetski's.
- Location
- Redding CA
To true.. back in the 90's on wiskeytown lake in far north california there was a sweet cove with a small 150' island in the middle. We would rail around the island in the glassy water one day we where doing our thing and this guy comes up and parks his boat on the island mind you we where obviously there first. The guy precedes to get back on his boat and trys to chase us off well my dad did like any father stoped his ski and told the guy to leave us alone we where there first. I stopped skiing to listen to him and my dad He precedes to tell us all about who he is and who his friends are. My dad told him he didn't give a
who he was. The next time we went out there was two 5mph bouys in front of each side of the island. Of course that didn't stop us as long as we saw no rangers it just made that spot that much better having 2 bouys 
- Location
- Santa Maria, CA
I think, couches and boats should have to run DI two stroke or 4 stroke. And stand ups being that their is not nearly as many out there can do what the F__k they want. Thats my argument.
- Location
- fortcollins
the main reason is just that these rich SOB's in there big ass boats with there rich ass freinds dont like us. in there eyes anyone riding a standup is just a problem child on the water so they want us gone so they can cruz quietly around with their snobby freinds. What they dont see when they are lifting there moley nose at a beach full of standups is our familys, kids running around playing havn fun, our hot ass wifes that dont need a doctor to suck out the fat from them and most importantly the freindships between riders, there isnt to many out there that wouldnt give the shirt off their back if you needed it, all those idiots see is a beach full low lifes drinkn beer causen problems for them.
N3vrSat1sfied
Military Member
- Location
- Fort Worth, TX
don't forget how many 2 stroke snowmobiles are still in production. We pretty much already saw 2 stroke MX die.
Code of Federal Regulations for Personal Watercraft at Lake Mead National Recreation Area
36 CFR §7.48 (f)(3) - After December 31, 2012, no one may operate a personal watercraft (PWC) that does not meet the 2006 emission standards set by EPA for the manufacturing of two-stroke engines. A person operating a personal watercraft that meets the EPA 2006 emission standards through the use of direct-injection two-stroke or four-stroke engines, or the equivalent thereof, is not subject to this prohibition and will be allowed to operate as described in this section.
What is a Personal Watercraft?
· 36 CFR §1.4 - Personal watercraft refers to a vessel, usually less than 16 feet in length, which uses an inboard, internal combustion engine powering a water jet pump as its primary source of propulsion. The vessel is intended to be operated by a person or persons sitting, standing or kneeling on the vessel, rather than within the confines of the hull.
· The length is measured from end to end over the deck excluding sheer, meaning a straight line measurement of the overall length from the foremost part of the vessel to the aftermost part of the vessel, measured parallel to the centerline. Bow sprits, bumpkins, rudders, outboard motor brackets and similar fittings or attachments, are not included in the measurement. Length is stated in feet and inches.
Why was this instituted?
· The final rule to prohibit PWC carbureted two-stroke engines on lakes Mead and Mohave was published in the federal register on Wednesday, April 9, 2003 (Vol 68, No. 68).
· Lake Mead supplies drinking water for millions of people in Las Vegas. Carbureted two-stroke engines have been shown to discharge 25-30% of their fuel directly into lake waters, resulting in high levels of hydrocarbon emissions that have the potential to harm water quality, people's health, and aquatic organisms.
· There is a ten year phase-in of this PWC rule at Lake Mead NRA. The rule was announced in 2003. Enforcement will begin January 1, 2013.
Video demonstrating difference between Carb and Direct Injection
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viWhxvo6DLk
Honestly I love 2-strokes! They are simple, powerful, light, easy to work on and I enjoy the way they sound. But they are a little bit of an old design and newer technology today definitely outshines on reducing the hydrocarbons and emissions and most new engines meet or exceed in performance too! This ban isn’t just for Jetskis its for 2-stroke engines, it’s just that most of the outboard manufacturers and most large PWCs, since 2006, have either gone to 4 stroke or direct injection. I just think the standups are getting the heat because of the ratio of riders per harmful emissions. A standup rocking a 701 carrying one rider means that that one person is producing the same amount as 3 riders on a waverunner using the same motor. That is just my thought tho.
36 CFR §7.48 (f)(3) - After December 31, 2012, no one may operate a personal watercraft (PWC) that does not meet the 2006 emission standards set by EPA for the manufacturing of two-stroke engines. A person operating a personal watercraft that meets the EPA 2006 emission standards through the use of direct-injection two-stroke or four-stroke engines, or the equivalent thereof, is not subject to this prohibition and will be allowed to operate as described in this section.
What is a Personal Watercraft?
· 36 CFR §1.4 - Personal watercraft refers to a vessel, usually less than 16 feet in length, which uses an inboard, internal combustion engine powering a water jet pump as its primary source of propulsion. The vessel is intended to be operated by a person or persons sitting, standing or kneeling on the vessel, rather than within the confines of the hull.
· The length is measured from end to end over the deck excluding sheer, meaning a straight line measurement of the overall length from the foremost part of the vessel to the aftermost part of the vessel, measured parallel to the centerline. Bow sprits, bumpkins, rudders, outboard motor brackets and similar fittings or attachments, are not included in the measurement. Length is stated in feet and inches.
Why was this instituted?
· The final rule to prohibit PWC carbureted two-stroke engines on lakes Mead and Mohave was published in the federal register on Wednesday, April 9, 2003 (Vol 68, No. 68).
· Lake Mead supplies drinking water for millions of people in Las Vegas. Carbureted two-stroke engines have been shown to discharge 25-30% of their fuel directly into lake waters, resulting in high levels of hydrocarbon emissions that have the potential to harm water quality, people's health, and aquatic organisms.
· There is a ten year phase-in of this PWC rule at Lake Mead NRA. The rule was announced in 2003. Enforcement will begin January 1, 2013.
Video demonstrating difference between Carb and Direct Injection
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viWhxvo6DLk
Honestly I love 2-strokes! They are simple, powerful, light, easy to work on and I enjoy the way they sound. But they are a little bit of an old design and newer technology today definitely outshines on reducing the hydrocarbons and emissions and most new engines meet or exceed in performance too! This ban isn’t just for Jetskis its for 2-stroke engines, it’s just that most of the outboard manufacturers and most large PWCs, since 2006, have either gone to 4 stroke or direct injection. I just think the standups are getting the heat because of the ratio of riders per harmful emissions. A standup rocking a 701 carrying one rider means that that one person is producing the same amount as 3 riders on a waverunner using the same motor. That is just my thought tho.
True, but most new 2-stroke snowmobiles are all Direct Injection.
Having ridden both, if you were still racing MX would you use a 2-stroke or 4? most riders say that once you go 4-stroke there is not turning back.
I beleive the ban is on Carborated 2-strokes, 2-strokes will continue to be used and produced they are only going to have to be of the Direct Injected type.
This is completely true. The reason that 2 strokes aren't allowed on Lake Tahoe is because Casino Mogul Steve Wynn didn't like hearing them when he visited his lake front mansion in Lake Tahoe. His goal was to have all pwc's banned from the lake (at the time they were all 2-strokes). He did this by paying independant groups to study the harmful affects of 2 strokes on the water. Unfortunately for us, he finally found a group that would post favorable results to him (because all of the groups up until that point couldn't find any substantial evidence that PWCs were polluting the lake). He then used that data to push the city into banning them. This was the foundation of all of the 2-stroke bans we see today.
Unfortunately I'm very familiar with 36 CFR BS. It is total BS. First off, 25-30% of unburnt fuel directly into the water is a ridiculous exageration. If that were true we would all see small puddles of fuel behind our skis everytime we fired them up in the garage. Secondly, the arguement that it pollutes our drinking water is scientifically false. Whatever fuel comes out of our skis will float on the top of the water where it will evaporate. I can't remember the exact number, but it was like 90% of evaporates within 10 minutes. The water intakes on lake mead for drinking water are 200 ft below the surface.
Also, to your point about all 2-stroke engines being banned. Yes, this is the law, they are supposed to all be banned. Guess what though, the National Park Service has decided to only enforce the ban on PWCs. Yes, they have decided to discriminate against us. WTF!!
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...to the OP. A very good arguement for why they should not be banned is because there is no scientific data to back up the claims made by the enviro-nazis. You can search, but trust me, I've searched quite a bit. You wont find any studies showing harmful levels of fuel in the water. This is because all of the studies that were done contradicted the claims of the enviros. They chose not to post the results because it would only destroy their arguement.
An envirnmental group (BlueWater Network) sued the Federal Government for not protecting the National Parks. They did this with no scientific data showing harmful levels of fuel in the water, only outrageous claims of mass ammounts of raw fuel being dumped into our water. The Feds decided to pass this law, settling this case instead of fighting it. They took away our freedom based on false claims. I think this is fundamental violation of our rights.
An envirnmental group (BlueWater Network) sued the Federal Government for not protecting the National Parks. They did this with no scientific data showing harmful levels of fuel in the water, only outrageous claims of mass ammounts of raw fuel being dumped into our water. The Feds decided to pass this law, settling this case instead of fighting it. They took away our freedom based on false claims. I think this is fundamental violation of our rights.
Why would we see puddles in the garage? when the fuel mixture is ran through the motor it is atomized, burnt and what comes out is in a gaseuous state not liquid. its when that exhaust is mixted with water is when it pollutes it, cuase it sticks to the water molecules. You are mostly correct about the fuel evaporating, but i think its it the oil they are really concerned with, that stuff dont evaporate. Go to any parking lot after it rained a little and you will see all of the fun rainbowie puddles where all the cars and trucks park. It's the oil being introduced into the eco system that has the biggest harmfull effects. With DI most of this oil is able to be burnt which allows for a much cleaner 2-stroke.
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