650/X-2 fabric/cloth help

[Vumad]

ya I am super pumped on my motor setup I think this ski will rip! I work at my parents car stereo shop so I have made a bunch of custom fiberglass boxes (have 6 eights in my double cab tacome, yes i still have all my seats). So I have a pretty solid idea on how to glass, I just haven't used cloth before as all of our boxes are made from chop strand mat and poly resin.

the info I'm chasing after is what cloth I should be using. I know everyone uses 1208 and 1708 but is there anything better. thoughts on s-2 glass as well specifics would be awesome.

I am ready for layup on the top of the ski (hood and top of nose). I want to get that all done and reinforced first so I can look up through the gapping hole on the bottom of the hull to make sure that the hood is sealing properly. then I will proceed to other parts of the ski @vamad

I have only received one answer on the intended reason this thread was started, from schicks! Again I am looking for answers on what kind of cloth I should be using.

If you are doing the hull and hood, cover the foam with plastic or packing tape first. This will keep the resin out of the foam, making it easier to remove the foam, prep the new layup and to do the second layup on the inside easier.

It doesnt matter if you use 1208 or 1708. They are both the same except for weight. They are both a weave sewn to a chop. The areas you are working are flat and will layup easy. The major difference between the 1208 and the 1708 is how fast they bulk. The 1208 takes more labor to lay the same thickness as the 1708. The part you are working is flat, so 1708 is fine. 1208 will be easier to work on theharder conyours of the bottom.

On the top deck and hood, i would sand the foam down about 1/32" from flush, then cover it with some plastic. Actually, i prefer to use drywall mud and packing tape on the foam and waxing the tape so the new material doesnt stick. Prep the hull so the new material does stick.

i would layup a layer of 1208 only over the foam pretty side down, then a second layer about 1-2" overlap of the original hull pretty side up, then a 3rd layer of 4oz conform cloth about 2-3" overlap.

When its all hard, i would then go inside the hull, removing all of the foam, mud and plastic / tape. I woukd then prep the new layup on the original hull. Next i would layup 1708 to fill the void created by the thickness of the original hull unyil its all pretty flush, you can use also heavier weaves like 24oz cloth too to bulk faster for this part. Then, once its bulked up and flush to the hull, i would layup 3 layers of 1208 at 1, 2 and 3" overlap finishing with a 4th layer of 4oz conform cloth 4"overlap.

Then fair in the inside and outside with epoxy mixed with talc.

You may be able to use a layer less, but youve eliminated the entire structure of the boat, so id go heavy or budget to do it again.

The nose and tray can be done the same way, but the tray all has to be done from the outside. Thats okay though, because the turf covers the changes in the body shape.

I would encourage you to evaluate your cooling and control tubes while you have the back open, and consider drains and rear exhaust.

The glassing methods i suggested above are prequals to my "on the part" methods when you are ready yo waste a few bucks on molds or bagging.

 

[Vumad]

People use biax because it is structural glass. Weaves resist sheer. Chop resists impact. You can not use chop with epoxy because it is held together with starch. Poly has styrene that dissolves the starch. Epoxy does not. It takes obsurds amount of epoxy to wet out chop because it will not penetrate. You end up with a heavy mess of trash. 1208 and 1708 have chop sewn to them, so you have the chop without the starch. The weave spreads as you work it so it contours nicer than some plain weaves. You re welcome to mix on whatever kinds of fabric you like. You are not producing a professional qualuty part. Keeping the air out is the major concern and yhen removing yhe excess resin, bulk will work out the rest. Biax comes in both 45 and 0/90, so if you want to alternate the weaves, you can get less waste by buying the right weave.

The 4 oz conform cloth as a finisher hides a lot of the biax weave, resulting in less body work, and thus less weight.

 

[jules210]

People use biax because it is structural glass. Weaves resist sheer. Chop resists impact. You can not use chop with epoxy because it is held together with starch. Poly has styrene that dissolves the starch. Epoxy does not. It takes obsurds amount of epoxy to wet out chop because it will not penetrate. You end up with a heavy mess of trash. 1208 and 1708 have chop sewn to them, so you have the chop without the starch. The weave spreads as you work it so it contours nicer than some plain weaves. You re welcome to mix on whatever kinds of fabric you like. You are not producing a professional qualuty part. Keeping the air out is the major concern and yhen removing yhe excess resin, bulk will work out the rest. Biax comes in both 45 and 0/90, so if you want to alternate the weaves, you can get less waste by buying the right weave.

The 4 oz conform cloth as a finisher hides a lot of the biax weave, resulting in less body work, and thus less weight.

now we are getting hotter!! is there an alternative to 1208/1708 though?? for instance s glass because it is said to be stronger and lighter (I was looking at 14oz 8 harness satin weave) . or should s glass only be used when bagging because air is trapped in that specific weave easily (i was told)?? Are there better options than carbon, 1208, or 1708 is what I'm asking?

professional or not I want it to be the best it can be given some parameter's like not bagging ect....

 

[Quinc]

I would think with the saran wrap and a roller you would be able to get all of the air bubbles out of the sglass.

 

[Vumad]

now we are getting hotter!! is there an alternative to 1208/1708 though?? for instance s glass because it is said to be stronger and lighter (I was looking at 14oz 8 harness satin weave) . or should s glass only be used when bagging because air is trapped in that specific weave easily (i was told)?? Are there better options than carbon, 1208, or 1708 is what I'm asking?

professional or not I want it to be the best it can be given some parameter's like not bagging ect....

Lets take 10oz weave. S glass, e glass, carbon, its all 10oz weave. The difference is in the thread used to make the weave. My understanding is s glass and e glass are the same thing, s is just a higher quality, like carbon is a better thread than glass.

1208 and 1708 are weaves. E glass in 10oz cloth, 8oz chop and 1208 biax are all made from e glass. One is just a weave like your shirt, the next is cut up pieces glued together with starch, and the last is a combo for the first 2 held together by stiching.

The material is independent of the weave and a large driver of price. Carbon is a waste of money unless you are bagging expensive resins. Wether you want s glass, e glass or some other material is budget driven. Then whos to say if s is anybetter than e when you have to persue a desired bulk without cores.

Each material and each weave has its benefits. I did one of my hulls with all of the weaves. 1208 to get a good lay, 24oz to bulk, 1708 in the middle, finished with 4oz to reduce fairing. Did i do it the best? Who knows. I might not have the best strength to weight, but what i do know i i cut a x2 in half, then glued it back together. Withall of the force in the steering,my primary concern was to make sure the ski didnt break inhalf.

I said a few posts up how id do the job. I may be heavy, but my jobs dobt fail.

 

[jules210]

Lets take 10oz weave. S glass, e glass, carbon, its all 10oz weave. The difference is in the thread used to make the weave. My understanding is s glass and e glass are the same thing, s is just a higher quality, like carbon is a better thread than glass.

1208 and 1708 are weaves. E glass in 10oz cloth, 8oz chop and 1208 biax are all made from e glass. One is just a weave like your shirt, the next is cut up pieces glued together with starch, and the last is a combo for the first 2 held together by stiching.

The material is independent of the weave and a large driver of price. Carbon is a waste of money unless you are bagging expensive resins. Wether you want s glass, e glass or some other material is budget driven. Then whos to say if s is anybetter than e when you have to persue a desired bulk without cores.

Each material and each weave has its benefits. I did one of my hulls with all of the weaves. 1208 to get a good lay, 24oz to bulk, 1708 in the middle, finished with 4oz to reduce fairing. Did i do it the best? Who knows. I might not have the best strength to weight, but what i do know i i cut a x2 in half, then glued it back together. Withall of the force in the steering,my primary concern was to make sure the ski didnt break inhalf.

I said a few posts up how id do the job. I may be heavy, but my jobs dobt fail.

Does 1208 or 1708 come in different weaves than just plain?
1708 & 1208 are weaves but have different weights in cloth; Being that 1208 uses 12oz cloth stitched to 8oz chop and 1708 uses 17oz cloth to 8oz chop (biax).

I have done some more research on s glass and it appears to have different weaves. For example the initial s-2 glass I was looking at buying was an 8 harness satin weave but I was informed that it would be hard to get air bubbles out. I just found another supplier that sells s glass in a plain weave. So it's not so much s glass is hard to get air out of but rather the specific weave that the s glass has. yes s glass is higher quality in the way that it is produced, on a lower scale than e glass and uses higher-strength glass fabric.

so my next question becomes what weaves are best in a project like this (Plain weave, Basket weave, Twill, crowfoot satin, 8harness satin, 5 harness satin. @Vumad I question how you did one of your hulls will all of the weaves when you only listed 4 different fabrics being used and I just listed 6 different weaves???? (could have kept going)

I also would like to know what people go by for a min/max or a base line of what thread count to use in this type application. I understand that more threads will make it less conformable and vis-versa. So I will not need an in depth explanation on that rather the cold hard facts, of what works the best.

shanks

 

[jules210]

I would think with the saran wrap and a roller you would be able to get all of the air bubbles out of the sglass.

these roller are meant to more push the air to the sides. so your rolling pattern matters a little more (going back and forth from one edge to the other in a straight line)

I am using a bristle brush roller were the bristles actually pop the air bubbles instead of pushing the air. so instead of side to side in a straight line my pattern can be a little bit more free on how I push the roller

you wouldn't want to put siran wrap over the layup and try to roll out air. the siran wrap is used to smooth your layup out at the end and to get corners to seat
you could use this roller with the wax paper or cardboard instead of a bondo card when trying to wet the material out.

 

[Vumad]

We were making pinatas the other day. My buddy was using elmera glue and the washington post. I was like, no way dude. The new york times makes a way better pinata. We started doing some research and found that the times uses a paper with a slightly higher tensile stength than the post, but the post is lighter. We analyzed the data and a cad program, and as it turns out, it doesnt matter what paper or glue you use, as long as you put candy inside of it after it dries.

 

[Quinc]

these roller are meant to more push the air to the sides. so your rolling pattern matters a little more (going back and forth from one edge to the other in a straight line)

I am using a bristle brush roller were the bristles actually pop the air bubbles instead of pushing the air. so instead of side to side in a straight line my pattern can be a little bit more free on how I push the roller

you wouldn't want to put siran wrap over the layup and try to roll out air. the siran wrap is used to smooth your layup out at the end and to get corners to seat
you could use this roller with the wax paper or cardboard instead of a bondo card when trying to wet the material out.

Can you a post a link to the bristle brush you are using?

 

[jules210]

heres the link brotha
http://compositeenvisions.com/bristle-roller-1-dia-x-3-length-1470.html
you could just type in bristle brush roller on Google and find them for sale that way but compsite envisions is out of wiscompton and they are pretty awesome to deal with. Shipping is a little spendy but on point with delivery dates, I received my order next day even though they where behind!! I purchased my foam from them best deal I found but shipping again was spendy.

if I made my ski like a piñata and used that philosophy. my hard earned candy would be sinking to the bottom while the half arsed hull floating down the channel from the first cruiser wave I hit @Vumad
thanks for your input but again I'm looking for cold hard facts on what fabrics/ weaves/ thread count I should be using

 

[Norass411]

Did we ever reach a conclusion here? A local supplier has some 14oz S-glass I'd like to use but it's 8 harness satin. Should be easy enough to lay up on the beams. I plan on doing 12 oz. biax for the tight curves in the bow. My main question is the strength comparison between this and 17oz biax I was planning on ordering. S-glass is advertised as %20 stronger than E-glass. 1.2*14=16.8 (not sure if this is even an accurate comparison) so I'm figuring just about as strong and a little bit lighter. But, being satin weave, does that mean this S-glass would actually be weaker than the 17oz biax E-glass?

Disclaimer, this is a freeride boat that I hope to convert to a bouy ripper when I do a full freestyle build so maximum strength may not even be necessary...

 

[Nate_D]

Did we ever reach a conclusion here? A local supplier has some 14oz S-glass I'd like to use but it's 8 harness satin. Should be easy enough to lay up on the beams. I plan on doing 12 oz. biax for the tight curves in the bow. My main question is the strength comparison between this and 17oz biax I was planning on ordering. S-glass is advertised as %20 stronger than E-glass. 1.2*14=16.8 (not sure if this is even an accurate comparison) so I'm figuring just about as strong and a little bit lighter. But, being satin weave, does that mean this S-glass would actually be weaker than the 17oz biax E-glass?

Disclaimer, this is a freeride boat that I hope to convert to a bouy ripper when I do a full freestyle build so maximum strength may not even be necessary...

I like Vumad's explanation in the metaphor of the piñata. I personally hate working with biax. That S2 8HS glass will work fine. So will biax. Most biax has a stitched mat to it, which is entirely unnecessary aside from making the layup thicker (and heavier). Biax is largely used in the boating industry on large flat panels because it builds quickly and the chopped is believed to help with interlaminate bonding by creating a resin rich later between the plies. Time is money, and if the boat weighs a few more pounds to save some money on labor and materials, that's a good trade off.

A lot of guys bring the biax over to skis because what's good for a boat is good for a jet ski. This is mostly not the case. But at the end of the day, if you are reinforcing a ski, it's going to be heavy. You can do it with chopped mat. You can do it with biax. You can do it with 8HS S2 glass. You could even do it with ultra high modulus carbon that costs an absurd amount and won't be found outside of a Boeing manufacturing facility. Get whatever fabric is readily available to you and easiest to work with. And to that point, I'll take a harness satin over a stitched biax any day. Your surface prep is going to be far more important than biax vs 8hs.