Freestyle Freestyle $$$ sport?

[Asmbandits]

Hello all, this may ruffle a few feathers but I wanted to get some opinions on the subject of freestyle skis and how they demand a $20-30k price tag. I can see how building a ski of such caliber can cost so much as ive esily spent 5K on my fx1 build last year, and its far from a flatwater comparable ski. I guess it all comes back to supply and demand, yet even so these skis are very basic, hull and two cycle engine.. I dont see why it should be that you would have to take a second mortgage out on your house to purchase a stand up ski. Yes I get that its a tight nich industry and its not like huge manufactures are producing this stuff, but could it get to the point where one day these manufatures can figure out a way to mass produce a somewhat comparable product for less to sell more of the product for less and still make a comparable profit? 2 cycle technology is a very old, very basic technology that really in my mind does not demand a 5-9k price tag.. I see the new non billet pv top ends and I think this is a step in the right direction.. Its just my opinion but I feel that the price tag that goes along with the sport is what holds it back from growing, though most would probably like that its not a mainstream sport.

Anyone have any thoughts?

 

[102nd7]

Couldn't agree more

 

[Matt_E]

Not everyone needs a 30k pro-level freestyle ski. There are plenty of 1-2k Superjets out there.

IMO, complaining about the prices at the very top of the sport is like bitching about the cost of Ken Block's car.

 

[camojoe]

x2


Never understood how the engine price tags are where they are. It seems that since OEM parts are so friggin expensive that the A/M arena followed suit.

I myself has spent the money but I always laugh when I can get a 350 HO chevy crate motor for less than a 2 stroke 'insert brand here' motor. Kinda blows my mind

 

[raytherace]

I think its possible to build an aftermarket hull like BOB for 8-9k. If you use your Superjet 701 (value 3500-5000$) + a fiberglass hull (4500$), you are good to go. You cant compare a NEW superjet from the dealer at 9000$ with an highyly modified freestyle machine. I think the situation is the same in almost all sport. I have customer who compete in ATV, and the stock machine at the dealer is around the same price and he can easily modified his machine for 25k.

 

[Wakerider26]

Pandora's box = open

Seriously though, if you want to flatwater backflips off idle, then it does cost that much. Parts are expensive because our sport is small, and our sport is small because parts are expensive.

 

[Schmidty721]

Grab yourself a $3k superjet, pay a couple boat drivers some gas money for a nice double up then see if you even have the balls to throw the tricks a $30k ski will be capable of.

Plenty of fun can be had in this sport for a reasonable $$ amount. The flat water discipline just happens to require a lot of money to be able to compete at the top level. There is a very small percentage to people that have the funds to build these skis and even fewer with the talent to ride them.

 

[swapmeet]

Oh boy here we go...


Aftermarket hulls and large displacement engines are relatively new compared to... a SOHC V8.

As far as motors, the majority of the large displacement mills are Billet, and their being machined. Factory (mass produced) mills are cast. So that itself is reason enough for a cost difference.

Think about the Backie Chan, BOB, Aquabot, Brawler and other less expensive hulls coming out. The quality is still high but the price is more palletable for the entry level guys.


IMO, this is the issue. The major competitions.
They crave big air and flippy do's. So the biggest motor you can have to compete is a 900.... and ultra exotic AM hulls are accepted...
So lets create a class for the little guy right??
But if you try to compete with a 701 in a stock hull... the amount of tricks comparatively that can be done are uninteristing to anyone except maybe the riders parents.


I think a post like this surfaces about once a year. I almost remember the last one. And the MFG's said 'try it yourself and see if you can do it cheaper'.

Well... now we have the Brawler and Backie Chan (since that post) and the guys with the new cast nikasil top ends....


People are impatient (myself included) I want more power NOW and a lighter hull NOW... and i'm willing to spend $xxxx to get that. As long as there are people who can afford it, the prices will be higher. Conversely, if the people who can't afford these things keep beating the bushes... alternatives will surface.

 

[Scraggly]

Grab yourself a $3k superjet, pay a couple boat drivers some gas money for a nice double up then see if you even have the balls to throw the tricks a $30k ski will be capable of.

Plenty of fun can be had in this sport for a reasonable $$ amount. The flat water discipline just happens to require a lot of money to be able to compete at the top level. There is a very small percentage to people that have the funds to build these skis and even fewer with the talent to ride them.

theres still more money then talent in this sport like many others.

 

[wsuwrhr]

Some of the components are very expensive to produce, and reflected in the price tag.

 

[Matt_E]

Some of the components are very expensive to produce, and reflected in the price tag.

Well I think you should quit charging so much and start working for minimum wage.

 

[wsuwrhr]

Well I think you should quit charging so much and start working for minimum wage.

I wish it were that simple. I already pay to come to work. haha

 

[Matt_E]

I wish it were that simple. I already pay to come to work. haha

We know the truth, you evil mustache twirling, tophat & monocle wearing industry baron! Stop keeping us down!

 

[TheBuzzard]

i call it the dog licks his nuts law. the top engine and hull builders charge what they do because they can. they are not looking to make money from volume sales. they do not cater to the average peasant that wants the best but cant afford it. unfortunately in this world, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. this world is all about reality. you can wish you had the million dollar stuff, but if you cant afford it, you aint getting it.

 

[Asmbandits]

Matt, im not bitching if thats what you took it as, if I can buy a corvette or a ski that is a hull and 2 cycle engine im going to buy the corvette, just seeing how the price is more justified in the purchase. just looking for someones to talk to explain the cost in a intelligent fashion rather than just telling me im complaining.. I mean my crf450 is 10 times more complex than a large bore stand up ski, yet I paid $2k for it.. Its something that doesnt make a lot of sense so mabey someone could shed some light that is all I was after.

 

[swapmeet]

Matt, im not bitching if thats what you took it as, if I can buy a corvette or a ski that is a hull and 2 cycle engine im going to buy the corvette, just seeing how the price is more justified in the purchase. just looking for someones to talk to explain the cost in a intelligent fashion rather than just telling me im complaining.. I mean my crf450 is 10 times more complex than a large bore stand up ski, yet I paid $2k for it.. Its something that doesnt make a lot of sense so mabey someone could shed some light that is all I was after.

Did the billet top end (aftermarket) vs Cast top end (mass produced OEM) resonate with you?

Thats the best example I can come up with.

 

[Matt_E]

Matt, im not bitching if thats what you took it as, if I can buy a corvette or a ski that is a hull and 2 cycle engine im going to buy the corvette, just seeing how the price is more justified in the purchase. just looking for someones to talk to explain the cost in a intelligent fashion rather than just telling me im complaining.. I mean my crf450 is 10 times more complex than a large bore stand up ski, yet I paid $2k for it.. Its something that doesnt make a lot of sense so mabey someone could shed some light that is all I was after.

I wasn't talking about you specifically, apologies if it came across that way. The topic comes up somewhat regularly.
The simple answer is that the sales volume that normally drives prices down through numbers and automated production just doesn't exist in this market.
Those that make and sell the big motors have relatively few sales to recoup their R&D costs, pay for their own overhead and specialist labor. Of course it'll be expensive.
A Corvette engine is mass-produced on an automated assembly line. Millions of units are sold, effectively reducing the R&D portion of each unit's price down to cents.
You have NONE of that in our sport.

Every now and then some new hull builder will try to break into the market with the sole purpose of offering hulls for a "real price". This goes on for a few months until they realize they are not adequately paying themselves. Either prices go up or they disappear. There are at least four examples of that in the past year that I can think of.

 

[Asmbandits]

sorry, i cant reply fast enough lol, yes swapmeet your post made a lot of sense, I dont agree with the price of an 1000cc two cycle engine needing to cost as much as a much more complex v8 engine just because its made of billet which it does not have to be.. and also Im pretty sure 2 cycles were around much longer than a SOHC V8

 

[Matt_E]

sorry, i cant reply fast enough lol, yes swapmeet your post made a lot of sense, I dont agree with the price of an 1000cc two cycle engine needing to cost as much as a much more complex v8 engine just because its made of billet which it does not have to be.. and also Im pretty sure 2 cycles were around much longer than a SOHC V8

You're making a very classic mistake here: you're assuming that the price of a widget should be based only on raw materials. That's not true. The V8 may be more complicated, but it is produced by the millions on automated assembly lines using cheap, largely unskilled labor.
The 1000cc two-stroke may see a couple hundred units sold (if that), and material cost is probably the smallest component of the price. R&D to come up with the product must be paid for. CNC machines must be paid for. Shop space is expensive. Specialist labor is not free.

 

[ProSouth]

It really seems to be getting cheaper. new builders for engines and hulls. yamaha stuff can be bought used for good prices from someone who wants an upgrade. and some guys have been in the sport for ages. so when they build a superjet up, they can part it out or sell it then put that money and a couple grand more into a better lower end hull and get a 770-850 motor. then after a season or 2 if its all in good shape. sell and do the same. when i started out i had a Square 650. stock everything. EVERYTHING. last year i rode a 2002 RN 650 (yeah, 650) then halfway through the year built myself a 718 and bought the $495 solas mag. my engine is cheap. SBT crank. and wiseco topend overbore and a used head from jetmaniac. this year Ill be on a bob gen 2 with my same 718 solas mag and CATS. is it the best? hell no. but, next year i'll probably have something better.