Freestyle Freestyle $$$ sport?

[Schmidty721]

sorry, i cant reply fast enough lol, yes swapmeet your post made a lot of sense, I dont agree with the price of an 1000cc two cycle engine needing to cost as much as a much more complex v8 engine just because its made of billet which it does not have to be.. and also Im pretty sure 2 cycles were around much longer than a SOHC V8

In most cases billet is the only option for the builder. The initial cost to develop a casting is far too great.
Billet also allows you to make changes to the cylinder if need be. Once you decide to pull the trigger on a casting mould, thats what you have and you better hope that's what people are going to want to buy to recoup your initial cost

 

[Asmbandits]

Thanks for the input Matt, yes does make a lot of sense. I feel like the demand for the product is there yet the industry cannot support a less expensive price tag due to the cost off there process. I feel more as if the industry looks at there products as works of art, one offish and they have every right to but I feel there has been no strive to bring the products mainstream as doing so will take away from all of this. Its hard because I see both side to this..

 

[wsuwrhr]

I think the costs are comparable to any other top level sport, IMHO skis and ATVs are the cheapest they come for a motorized sport. Next is cars or boats at double the cost. Not of my cars or boats will do a backflip(at least succesfully)

The OP should look at the pricing of "mountain" or racing bicycles that don't even propel themselves or have to be as precise as an engine, or eat themselves if they are not.

Carbon hulls, billet motors and all the other parts and peices are all custom, purpose built components. All are "hand" made, in a sense, one-off peices. Built in quantities of 20-25 at a time.

I can assure you I don't live an extravagant life and I have my own toys to pay for that I play with when work/money allows me to. Many of those are/or were at the time, top notch level and cost associated as well.

I don't know what the OP is frustrated over, really. I just figured I would post an example of what it costs to make some of the components.

Brian

 

[Asmbandits]

I know exactly what you are saying, but there is such thing as over engineering, I see it all the time as I am a service technician that works on automated car washes and see how some manufactures spend way to much time, money and materials on developing something that produces the same results are another machine that cost half that and breaks much less often. As far as them needing to be billet I feel this is more because you can make just about anything out of billet, yet it cost much more each run.. yet you can develop and spend more $ on the techniques to mass produce and each run after will cost much less but it takes much more start up money to do so..

 

[Lumpy]

I dont see how the high cost of skiing is any different from any other sport.

 

[Big Kahuna]

I came up with this about 9 years ago. This was when the only option was a Wammer Hull or XFT hull.

Pro Level Freestyle SKI with AM Hull

Hull $7,000.00
Hood $800.00
Pole $500.00
Bracket $125.00
Steering $150.00
Intake Grate $100.00
Ride Plate $180.00
Pump $1,500.00
Impellor $250.00
Trim System $850.00
Drive Shaft $500.00
Intermediate Shaft $350.00
Couplers $150.00
Coupler Cover $35.00
Bed Plates $100.00
Cases $400.00
Lamey Cylinders $1,500.00
Crank $1,500.00
Pistons $250.00
Head $400.00
Pipe $700.00
Carbs/Intake $2,500.00
Flame arrestors $110.00
MSD TL $1,200.00
Gas Tank $75.00
Battery $75.00
Battery Tray $35.00
Electrical Components $100.00
Steering Cable $100.00
Start Stop Switch $100.00
UMI Steering $150.00
Bars $35.00
Chin Pad $150.00
Hydroturf $60.00
Throttle Cable $75.00
Grips $30.00
Footholds $140.00
Scupper (2) $150.00
Misc Hardware $400.00
Motormounts $160.00
Finger Throttle $65.00

Machine Work:
Porting $400.00
Case Modification $400.00
Pipe/manifold Modification $200.00
Motor Assembly $300.00


Assembly:
Motor $200.00
Install Total Loss & Setup $250.00
Misc (Cable, hoses, etc) $150.00
hydroturf $300.00
handlepole & Steering $100.00
pump (inc shimming& Trim syst) $150.00
Paint $2,500.00
Tuning $300.00


Total $28,300.00

This may help to put it in perspective of why it cost so much. many of these builds are from the ground up. Not from donor skis.

 

[yldsix]

I asked this question in another thread but it didnt get answered why are stroker cranks so friggin expensive vs the stock one which is less then half the price? You can get a stroker for a dirt bike for around 300.

 

[Asmbandits]

No one is frustrated, simply talking about the subject. I have a garage of one off toys myself, The skis being the most money spent on yet the least complex.. Not trying to piss anyone off, im not even mad its just strange to me as I work on other project it pops up in my mind.

 

[swapmeet]

Whenever the last thread came around, I said that the market was there for a backyard hull builder to produce something in the 3-4k range that was good quality (not super freak/ RRP quality). The majority disagreed. And here we are with a variety of that exact product.

Now... that being said, and to Matt's point... Steve at Trendsetters (Backie Chan builder) has mentioned many times that his glass and Carbon Kevlar hulls will be going up in price because he's not making enough.

Its a small sport too.... if you figure most of the sport is in the US... (at least in our eyes) and the majority of Americans who CAN afford a PWC are too lazy or fat to ride a stand up... It's just a niche thing man.

 

[Asmbandits]

Whenever the last thread came around, I said that the market was there for a backyard hull builder to produce something in the 3-4k range that was good quality (not super freak/ RRP quality). The majority disagreed. And here we are with a variety of that exact product.

Now... that being said, and to Matt's point... Steve at Trendsetters (Backie Chan builder) has mentioned many times that his glass and Carbon Kevlar hulls will be going up in price because he's not making enough.

Its a small sport too.... if you figure most of the sport is in the US... (at least in our eyes) and the majority of Americans who CAN afford a PWC are too lazy or fat to ride a stand up... It's just a niche thing man.

Agreed, and mabey its a good thing, keeps us dreaming and wanting more lol..

 

[Big Kahuna]

I asked this question in another thread but it didnt get answered why are stroker cranks so friggin expensive vs the stock one which is less then half the price? You can get a stroker for a dirt bike for around 300.

OEM Cranks are mass produced. OEM Replacement Cranks (Hotrods, WSM, SBT) are mass produced. There is no question that there will always be sales of these. Stroker Cranks are basically hand built. Yes, there are newer cranks coming out that are billet alum or whatever materials used that are CNC'd. But they are still handbuilt. If you have a trashed crank. The rebuild price is the same if you want Stock Stroke or Stroker Rods used.....

 

[sjetrider]

Supply and demand is the issue but not that there is too little supply, however that there is not enough demand.
Harley parts are CHEAP compared to Freestyle and even race ski parts because they make and sell hundreds at a time. Look at it like this.
A set of cast cases cost about $50 to make but the mold to make them cost $40K, so if you sell 50 sets of cases (A STRETCH IN THIS INDUSTRY) a set of cast cases cost you $850 ea so your resale has to be like $1200 for cast cases and you have to weight a long time for your return.
Something cast for a Harley motor or custome chopper that is as universal as a set of cases they will cost the same per set and set up but they will sell 200 of them a year bringing the cost of the cases to $250 making them sell at $400 vrs $1200 and the mfr / dealer gets his return in 25% of the time frame.
This is why you can buy an S&S 4 stroke twin billet or cast case motor for less then a freakn 2 stroke 1200cc motor.
or a 400 small block chevy for half the price. MAKE MORE MAKE CHEAPER period.

 

[yldsix]

Supply and demand is the issue but not that there is too little supply, however that there is not enough demand.
Harley parts are CHEAP compared to Freestyle and even race ski parts because they make and sell hundreds at a time. Look at it like this.
A set of cast cases cost about $50 to make but the mold to make them cost $40K, so if you sell 50 sets of cases (A STRETCH IN THIS INDUSTRY) a set of cast cases cost you $850 ea so your resale has to be like $1200 for cast cases and you have to weight a long time for your return.
Something cast for a Harley motor or custome chopper that is as universal as a set of cases they will cost the same per set and set up but they will sell 200 of them a year bringing the cost of the cases to $250 making them sell at $400 vrs $1200 and the mfr / dealer gets his return in 25% of the time frame.
This is why you can buy an S&S 4 stroke twin billet or cast case motor for less then a freakn 2 stroke 1200cc motor.
or a 400 small block chevy for half the price. MAKE MORE MAKE CHEAPER period.

well if they they made them cheaper then they would sell alot more, i could see more people going the stroker option if their crank failed and they were same price as oem. Not much r&d to go into a stroker crank, just a copy of oem with more offset, they already have the gear cause their producing cranks already, doesnt make sense to me.

 

[Big Kahuna]

well if they they made them cheaper then they would sell alot more, i could see more people going the stroker option if their crank failed and they were same price as oem. Not much r&d to go into a stroker crank, just a copy of oem with more offset, they already have the gear cause their producing cranks already, doesnt make sense to me.

Not all stroker cranks are just OEM Cranks with longer rods. Some cranks have longer webs to give the longer stroke. More to it that just that.

Also, You cannot set the price before you actually purchase the billet material, then machine the billet, source the rods and bearings. Assemble the cranks, True and Weld and then determine what your cost is. It is easy to say "Hey, I will sell this cheap, Sell alot of them"............. 3 years later your still sitting on 50% of your product...........

 

[Matt_E]

well if they they made them cheaper then they would sell alot more, i could see more people going the stroker option if their crank failed and they were same price as oem. Not much r&d to go into a stroker crank, just a copy of oem with more offset, they already have the gear cause their producing cranks already, doesnt make sense to me.

That's not how it works. The couple of stroker crank shops that are out there produce them with the methods they have at hand and figure out a price that compensates them and gives them some profit.
To make them cheaper would either mean hiring unqualified labor to do it or to automate it - which would be big bucks to implement. Sure, the production cost of the crank would be down, but all that new equipment must be paid for somehow and you can bet it's going to be a part of the crank price.
Besides, you can't just slap a stroker crank into an engine set up for a stock stroke. It's a bit more involved than that.

Lastly, reducing prices to increase demand is not a completely linear relationship - at some point it does not make sense to get more sales at reduced prices.




Just think about how small this sport really is: In what other sport can you be on a first-name basis with a lot of the pro-riders?
The equipment we're discussing costs of is the very same equipment that the top of sport riders use. You are essentially duplicating a top-of-the line pro-level boat. There aren't many sports were this is feasible, be it financially or otherwise.

 

[Flyboy]

Basically what everyone else is saying. Small sport, relatively small following (but growing pretty quick), which leads to less money to be made for manufacturers. Think about airplanes and why they are so expensive. Small single engine airplanes aren't super complex but come with a quarter million+ price tag. A set of 31" tundra tires cost 4 grand. Less of a market=higher prices. Think about the positive though. Look how far the sport has come in the last 5 years and think about where it will be in the next. In my opinion things are looking up, even though it is pricey now. Like MattE said a 30 thousand dollar boat is what a pro rides, think about how much you would have to spend to get a nascar or a top fuel drag car.

 

[yldsix]

I understand what you all are saying and am well aware of the process of setting up a stroker, but the 250% mark up is too much in my opinion and as everyone knows opinions are like a$$ holes, everyones got one.

 

[Matt_E]

I understand what you all are saying and am well aware of the process of setting up a stroker, but the 250% mark up is too much in my opinion and as everyone knows opinions are like a$$ holes, everyones got one.

Just what makes you think there is a 250% markup?
OEM cranks are mass-produced by unskilled labor. Most strokers are made by hand in specialist shops. (Who don't seem to be rolling in the riches!)

You are essentially saying that Crankworks' $1449.00 stroker really costs only $579, which is naive, to put it mildly.

 

[AtomicPunk]

I understand what you all are saying and am well aware of the process of setting up a stroker, but the 250% mark up is too much in my opinion and as everyone knows opinions are like a$$ holes, everyones got one.

Wow, I knew this thread would get bad after reading the first post. It has officially skipped past train wreck and straight to nuclear meltdown.

 

[yldsix]

Not saying that they should be 500 just stating that a mass produced oem crank is around 250% less then the stroker option and i think the price shoul land somewhere in the middle but thats just my opinion.