650/X-2 Got a X-2 hull... now what to put in it???

[Spooky]

Hey guys,

I'm in need of some advice here. I was in a motorcycle accident this spring, crashing my ducati and paralyzing myself from the waist down when I slid back first into a metal street sign pole doing 45mph. I was building a pretty sweet RN at the time, and wound up parting it out to help pay for medical bills and what not. As I've sat on the porch and watched people shredding out on the lake, I couldn't stand it anymore and decided I had to get back into the sport. I decided on a X2 hull since standups were out of the question (obviously) and I was wary of couches because if I fell off out on the lake, I probably wouldn't be able to get back on. I was thinking a blaster might work, but again, I'm just not strong enough to pull my ass up on the ski from the water. Enter the venerable X2. This ski is exactly what I need. And as luck would have it, I picked up a hull in great shape on good ol' Craigslist for the price of free.

Now comes the ever so important question, what to drop in this beast???? I recently saw a video of an 1100 swap from a ZXI, and was pretty impressed. First off, fiberglassing doesn't scare me. In fact, it's what I do for a living, repairing composite airplanes and such. So any swap that involves chopping up the sides of the hull to fit the engine is no big deal. What I'm looking for is the most bang for the buck. I am talking with a guy right now to buy his 96 ZXI for around a grand. It's not getting spark, but I figure I can figure that out when I rebuild the engine. Now, I need to pull the trigger quickly, or else I would take a week to scour the Interwebs for all the info I could find about this as I'm sure the topic has been debated already. However, I'm counting on you guys to come through for me with some great info that will help me make a decision in the next few days whether to buy this 1100 or to find something else. I am up for any swap, I really feel confident between myself and friends we can make anything work. I've heard about a gp800 swap??? I was surprised to find out that this engine makes 120 hp!!?? I would prefer something stronger than a 750/800 or 701/760 swap, not just for more power, but for unique-ness too. I would be down to hear what you guys have to say. I'm looking for the most hp per dollar basically. Tons of bottom end would be great, however, not the only thing I'm worried about, since my freestyling days are pretty much over. I"m just looking for a way to get back out on the lake and hang with my boys, and have a machine that's just damn sweet.

So bring on the suggestions!

I will be totally posting this build on here so I can get some advice along the way, especially when it comes to modding the ski to accommodate my disability.

Thanks in advance!
E

 

[crazy4sand]

Major props your still gonna ride. My personal friend is "wheelz" Arron james fotheringham hes the guy on the wheel chair who does backflips.. hes tried to ride my x2 he had trouble hejust could take off from the trailer but couldnt mount it from deep waters.

 

[MCrider]

My father in law is paralyzed from the waist down as well. He rides a gp1100 and a b1. He gets on the blaster better than i can. He was racing in the skat track midwest watercross tour but he stopped racing last year. He was featured in splash magazine in 1997 because he made it to world finals in havasu. That being said im sure you could ride just about anything. Before i sold my x2 he rode it to help diagnose a carb issue and he had a difficult time reaching the bars while in the water. Like i said tho he can deep water start his blaster and ride circles around me on it.

 

[MADMAT]

Your attitude kicks azz!! Good luck with the build!

 

[Wilke]

Props for getting back at it. I'd say go for the 1100, the gp800 would be sweet too, but I think for the wow factor you can't beat putting a triple in. As far as the actual swap I can't help you there, but you should check out pwctoday.com there is a lot more kawi support there, especially for the X2 (along with a couple 1100 build threads I think), and get in touch with these guys http://www.raddudesfi.com/raddudesfi.com/Welcome.html, they can help you out with anything you need to fully mod out that X2, good luck and look forward to seeing the build.

 

[ADDict]

This thread is awesome-stoked for you to get on the water bro!! I'm sure you'll get it dialed in no time. If you get some power in it side mounting will be super easy.
As for the engine, it'd be really hard to talk me out of a 701 based setup. Jetmaniacs big bore engines are amazing for the money. The conversion is easy and you'll be very surprised at how much power they put out!

 

[BlanT2]

A thought would be to flat deck the back but have it sloped from the back side then round gradually into a seat. Then put handholds sunk into the back deck to use to pull yourself onto the ski. I'm guessing you are going to want the back of the ski to sink as much as possible. Balance is going to be important especially when pulling knees into tray. You should add some kind of flotation/stabilization peice on the sides up high and then make the ski sit really low in the water. Basically you want the ski to sink as much as possible but when it hits a certain level you want the flotation/stabilization pods to make it super stable so you can climb on as easy as possible. Once the ski pulls out of the water the flotation/stabilization pods come out of the water and it rides like a normal x2. I'm guessing you are going to want to ride on your knees.

 

[DarkWater]

E Z !!
That's my boy!!
You know my input already. 1100 motor and Modify the poop out of this hull!

 

[Vumad]

I love it, and I hope I can and am about to give you any and all information you need for this project. Please feel free to PM me, I'd like to help with any answers you need. Put your reading glasses on...

There are differening amounts of work depending on what you want to do. The smallest amount of work in a Kawi 650 motor, while the largest amount of work is a Tripple with a pump swap. You don't seem to care about the workload, and sound like you can probably figure out on your own how much each option is in the way of work, so I wont cover that much at all.

Kawi Twin motors...

Any of the Kawi twin motors will bolt right to the hull and the driveline. The problem with the Kawi twin motors is not the motor but in the pipe. The 650 motors and pipes drop right in. However, the 750 and 800 pipes hit the hull, the area right infront of your left knee, a little higher than the top of the motor, about 3-4" behind the hood seal. Many people just put a 650 aftermarket pipe on the 750 motor. I do not believe in this. The power of a 2-stroke is largely dependant on the pipe, and putting a 650 pipe on a 750 motor seems to me like making an olympic runner run while breathing through a straw. The 750 and 800 stock pipes do not fit, but the Factory Pipe Products Pipe (750 limited with SJ chamber/B1 or 750 kawi chamber, and 800 wetpipe) will all fit, but they will not fit using the FPP manifold. You have to cut out a area of the hull to clear the pipe (if using the FPP manifold), it's not a big job but affects the look of the ski. Or, You need to use a aftermarket 650 manifold with these pipes to alter the angle of the head pipe to clear the hull. You should if possible modify the manifold to match up to the 750 manifold as best possible w/o affecting the water jacket. The 650 motor is easiest, the 750 gives significantly more power, and the 800 motor is signifcantly more costly. The biggest power comes from the 800 with a wet pipe, but the best power for your money comes from a 750 with a FPP pipe.

Yamaha Twin Motors...

Let me start with the GP800 motor is not 120HP. It's closer to 100hp. The GP800R motor is the 120hp motor. The difference in the Yamaha "R" motors and the standard is the power valves. The "R" motors have rave valves that modify the port timing, thus giving a longer range of power, increasing horsepower w/o sacrificing torque. This rule applies to the 800R, 1200R and 1300R. The 701 and 760 do not come with powervalves from yamaha. The Powervalve motors are nice, but they will cost you more money.

Now, for fitment. I am a fan of the Yamaha motor, and if you are willing to do the extra work, and stay off the water the extra time, the Yamaha is a better platform. However, the Yamaha motor is more work and more money. Yamaha motors cost more money to buy used, they hold their value better. The yamaha also does not bolt right in. You need to replace the motor mounts, and more importantly, you need to buy a Kawi style coupler for the Yamaha motor. These usuaally comes in a pair, as they are lighter than yamaha and used to replace the Yamaha set on a fully yamaha boat. You can probably just buy the engine side, then align your engine as needed. The 701 motor comes in a 61X and 62T (It may also say something different on the case, mine is a 62T but says a different number on the case, like 62v or something, nevermind that). The 61X is designed for a single carb, and the 62T is designed for a dual carb. The 62T case is newer and more desired, so is more expensive. The 61X and 62T motors will both give great power, and can both be modified to make more. The best combination is a 62T case with a 61X cylinder, and paying a reputable engine builder liek Jetmaniac or other to do the work. This is beneficial because if you can't find a running motor, you could buy a 62T motor with a good case and crank that needs a new top end, then get a 61X top end, have it worked, get a aftermarket head, and you have a badass motor. These motors will have the same exhaust issues as the Kawi.

The 800 motor mounts on an angle in the hull. The carbs and intake sit very low. THIS IS BAD in a X2. The X2 is infamous for taking on water, water ingestion, breaking down AND SINKING. I cannot see the 800 lower carbs as anything but a begging for problems. The good news is that there are kits available to mount the 800 motor upright just like the 701 and 760 motors. They will cost you extra. Unless you are going with the 800R motor, I'd go with the 701 motor. The worked 701 motor will end up being a similar price and power as a non-worked 800 motor (because you spend a few hundred extra just to fit it in the hull you could be spending on the 7001 motor, and the 800 motor costs more, the 800R costs a LOT more). I'd look for a running wave venture 701 and pull the motor myself, but, the 800 is much more power.

Seadoo Twins...

An option, there's a person on this forum who did it. I'm not fond of the idea. If you're going to put in all the work of changing motors, go Yamaha, but, if you're not scared, the fastest boat will be a Seado 950 Piped Powervalve Rotax motor.

About tripples...

The Kawi trippes line up with the back 2 motor mounts, so you only need 2 move the front 2 mounts. There are also 1100 conversion kits for the SXR, so just buy one and it bolts right in. All tripple motors are longer, so you loose some area b/t your motor and tank, and may need to modify your tank slightly to fit. You have all of the exhaust problems of putting a larger twin pipe in the hull, and them a few more. The tripple pipes are huge, and unless you detune the motor, you will have to likely cut the hull to clearance. This is not a big deal as the X2 hull benefits from adding sponsons or "tubbies" anyway, so you just add tubbies that conceal your new pipe. A big concern about tripple motors is their weight. Remember me telling you the X2 takes on water, then sinks? Well, the tripples weight about 40-50% more. The X2 is very light on foam. My X2 almost went to the bottom afetr just removing the hood foam (PS, keep the hood foam). The 1100 on PWCToday sunk to the bottom, and has still not been recovered. The tripple motors also cost more to buy, cost more to tune, and cost more to rebuild. The tripples are sweet, and if you want the absolute most badass power you can get, drop a GP1300R motor in there. But, if you are going to be a little budget conscious, and don't want to sepnd an assload of time for no reason, and you aren't going to try to push around a shuttle craft, stick with a twin.

A short about exhuast...

I don't buy the crap people spew about drilling out the stock X2 waterbox. The stock X2 box is a 1-3/4" ID in/out. The FPP or any aftermarket exhaust pretty much is 2" ID. Engines are air pumps. They use fuel to move air, but ultimately, the more air you move and the more efficently you move that air, the more power you make. Dump in all the fuel you want, power isn't restricted by fuel, it's restricted by air and heat retention. I do not believe in tuning down a motor. If you have a big motor, have a pipe to match. My favorite is the stock RN SJ waterbox. The problem with the SJ and other waterboxes is that it bleeds from the right instead of the left. This creates issues with your outlet as the tank and battery are in the way. They tank can be dented and the battery can fit under the seat (see my old build thread). You could cramp it out the front, but considering you will be side mounting, take the time to invest in a rear exhaust. The drilled 650 box is MUCH easier and cheaper, but putting a 650 pipe on a 750 motor is easy too. I think this is a hafl assed job and you sound like you want to do the job right. 750 motor, 750 pipe, waterbox to match, exhaust out the back.

Motor conclusion...

The Kawi motors are easiest. The best bang for your buck and time invested is a Kawi 750 motor. The best power for the money and work will, in my opinion, come from a Worked 701 or a 800R motor. I think any of these 3 will make you happy. I think the tripples are not worth it (unless you have an unusal application...). I vote Kawi 750, Kawi 800, Yama 701 or Yama 800R. I wish I had a worked 701, but I have a Kawi 750, and until it's sold, a 701 is not in the budget, nor is the time to fit it.

About the pump...

The kawi pump is ok. You can run the 650 pump or upgrade to a 750/800 pump (see the X2 mods sticky for a writeup on this). The 650 pump will be just fine with any option, but the 750/800 pump is a pretty good upgrade. The 650 pumps are limited to old props, they haven't designed any new props. You have the option of buying 800 props and having them cut to fit the 650 pump (Same diameter, different setback), but this costs about $100. Having a 800 pump gives you the ability to try any style and pitch prop you want, w/o paying to have it cut, or hurtting the resale of the prop. The 800 pumps cost more, you need to buy a pump shoe and modify it, you also need to customize the intake grate. This is also an uncommon mod. the 650 pump makes just as much power as the 800 once you get a prop cut to fit it. There's a reason most people don't do it. It's a lot of work for no power gain.

The best way to go is a Yamaha pump conversion. pretty much NO ONE does this. Why? It's an assload of work with marginal benefits. I would Only do this if you are going to put in a Yamaha motor (the Kawi would benefit too, but lots of work...) and you enjoy working on your ski more than riding it. This is a BIG project. It requires you cut out the kawi pump, glass in the the SJ pump (Rad Dudes and Tom21 sell copies), put in new hull inserts (unless they come with your new pump tunnel), replace the drive shaft tube, alter the bulk head, all while maintaing alignment with and engine you haven't even installed. Again, this is a BIG BIG BIG job, and there's a reason almost noone does it. Alignment must be perfect. Oh yeah, it adds weight too. I'd stay away from this one.

 

[Vumad]

Now for you hull...

I don't know how you are capable of riding. I would need more clarification before I can make better recommendations. I could make assumptions, but I'd rather just ask.

With that said, I can't suggest towards a seat or no seat, etc.

Anyway...

you will most likely nbe side mounting the ski. The best way to do this is to be on the side, hold the bars closer to the water, start the ski, turn the bars away from you (if you're on the left, turn them right), trim up, and give it gas. The trim and your weight pulls the nose up and pushes the back down, the momentum pulls you over the sunken back of the ski, then you pull yourself up.

I would suggest making a custom hood liner and adding hand holds to your hood. The bars can be pretty high up, and you wont be able to kick to reach them. I'd add 1 hand hold to the hood on each side about half way under the bars. You could just push the tray and grab the bars, it may work just fine, but if you have a hand hold at the right spot, you have a very good leverage point to grab the ski and pull it over quickly so you can reach the bars faster and easier.

There's a strap under the steering designed for 2 riders. Keep this strap. it is very useful. If you can reach the bars from the back, you can hold the strap with your right hand and reach the throttle with your left. Keeps you lower and the ski more stable, but you can still steering because all the weight is on your right hand, once idling, switch hands, throttle to something stable, let off the gas and your momentem will cause you to slide up the seat, making reach the bars less work.

You could also add hand holds halfway up the seat, but the seat is pretty good to grab onto itself.

Tubbies add a lot of stability to the ski, and so does the front nose fill. I did both at the same time, so I cannot comment on which gives what most benefits, but I like the handling much better with them. Tom21 sells Tubbies specifically made for the X2 that I have and are very nice. I made my own nose fill, but Tom21 now offers a kit that takes out the work. I spent a lot of time on mine and still didn't get it perfect. Tom21's kit is the way to go.

The ski comes with stock trim. It works ok. You can jet keep the stock setup, but you have other options. Pete removed the assembly and modified the trim mechanism to be attached to a bicycle brake lever by a short cable. Squeeze the bar, pulls the cables, rotates the skeleton of the stock trim, pulls the stock trim cable, instant uptrim, very nice. You will want uptrim to side mount, but may not like it while riding. Pete's mod lets you do neutral most of the time and up only when you need it. If you keep a stock length hull, you will probably ride uptrim most of the time anyway and wont need those mod, but if you shorten the hull, you may want to ride neutral and just have trim to side mount. X2guy also sells a nice trim kit. It does the same thing as what pete made. It costs a lot more than Pete's custom job, but the X2guy system is MUCH cleaner.

 

[Spooky]

Thanks for the great info so far guys! Quick question, I'm texting a guy right now that has a Yamaha Waveraider 1100 he's selling for dirt cheap (not running right). I'm wondering how feasible this swap is? Is the $400-$500 I would save over getting the Kawasaki 1100 I'm looking at worth the price or would I wind up spending more in the long run? Any benefits in running the Yamaha 1100 over the Kawasaki 1100?

 

[Vumad]

Thanks for the great info so far guys! Quick question, I'm texting a guy right now that has a Yamaha Waveraider 1100 he's selling for dirt cheap (not running right). I'm wondering how feasible this swap is? Is the $400-$500 I would save over getting the Kawasaki 1100 I'm looking at worth the price or would I wind up spending more in the long run? Any benefits in running the Yamaha 1100 over the Kawasaki 1100?

I'd try for a running Kawi with good compression. I do not see a broken Yamaha as a money saver. I like the Yamaha, but it has nothing to do with money. Here are the problems...

The Yamaha coupler doesn't match up. You will need the conversion coupler I told you about. It will cost you about $100-200

You're dealing with a tripple. 3 cylinders, 3 carbs. Everything about it will cost you 50% more than the twin. Say the Yama doesn't run because of bad carbs, rebuild kits will run $50 each x3. Say the compression is low, that's a bore $80x3 and piston/rings $80x3. If the compression is low, you could need a crank and a head. The price just goes up. You need to be very careful buying a non-running ski. My buddy bought a Waveblaster 2 the other day with good compression, cleaned the carbs, replaced the starter, $100 later he has a great running boat. If you buy not running, make sure you know what you are buying, or it could get very expensive.

The conversion is a lot more work. The Kawi twin bolts right in with the conversion plate. The Yamaha needs all new motor mounts and alignments. The Kawi plate does cost money, a few hundred, but you could move the mounts just like with the yamaha, so apples to apples, there's no price difference here. Plus, there are people who have put Kawi 1100 in the X2, but no Yamaha 1100 that I know of. With the Kawi, you have build threads to read and people to ask to find out how to do the job, less trial and error.

The only reason I can see to put a Yamaha 1100 instead of a Kawi 1100 is if A) You're a big Yamaha fan B) you have too much time and no interest in riding or C) You plan to upgrade to a 1200R or 1300R down the road.

I'd say be patient and look for a Kawi. You could get a 900 motor and swap in the 1100 later if you are in a rush. The yamaha 1100 just seems like way more work than it's worth. You may save $500, but spend $150 on the coupler, who knows on the repairs, and even if the repairs are free is the assload of time spent doing the conversion really worth that small amount of savings?

 

[madscientist]

if the x2 does not pan out maybe consider a seadoo 3-d in cart mode

 

[Vumad]

if the x2 does not pan out maybe consider a seadoo 3-d in cart mode

Thats a good suggestion. You could also do X2 with pontoons and make a cart seat for it.

 

[SpaceCowboy]

Good luck man...kudos to you

 

[Spooky]

Thanks Cowboy. My best friend went to Belleville High, graduated in 99 or 2000... so long ago I'm not sure anymore lol. And Vumad, I actually used to live in St Pete for almost 5 years, moving back to MI about 5 years ago. I was down in Pinellas Point around 66th ave south!

Ok so I think I've narrowed it down guys, I'm looking at putting in a high performance twin in there now. The motors I've been looking at are the Yamaha gp800r and the SeaDoobie 951. The idea is the mounting issues and everything aren't going to pose that big of a challenge for my boy and I to overcome, and I like the idea of finding a pretty much stock motor that comes with enough bang to give me the power I need. Now I'm not too sure on either of these engines. I would love some advice on which way to go. What are the specs of each motor? Bore? Stroke? HP? Torque? What mods would be worth it on these motors? What mods aren't worth the money/time? I read that the late model 951's even have Direct Injection??? That's crazy... they don't even have that in motorcycles yet. Motus, a brand new company that designed an engine, then designed a bike (acutally 2) around that engine, but when they finally brought it to market, they dropped the GDI (gasoline direct injection) one of the features that made that engine so unique/awesome. I digress. What years should I look at when I go to find a donor ski? What should I look at spending for a running ski? Non-running? I guess that covers all the issues I've got for now. I'm gonna order some epoxy resin whilst I wait the knowledge to roll in!

 

[madscientist]

both of thse motors do not mount upright and the seado i know for sure has clearance issues. both motors also have very low intake tracts that on an x2 is a big issue since they WILL ingest water (just a given). an upright kit from waterdawg customs may fix the gpr to upright but the exhaust (oem ) will not fit. i would suggest to buy a swap kit from Rhaas Products and drop an a/m pumpgass motor in there. most builders will curb them to the customers wishes and the fit will be good. a pump gass 865 with powervalves is well over 100hp and well suited for the application.

 

[WFO Speedracer]

I wouldn't bother with the 951, too much headache, carbs are too low and it just doesn't fit. I am putting a seadoo 787 in mine, it doesn't fit either but the mods to make it fit are not that bad and it is one of the best rotax engines ever made. 110 hp stock and it loves compression, bigger carbs etc. I can point you in the right direction on making that engine fit because I have done it.

The Yamaha 800 engine is the same in any year or model, it is 120 hp, there are no GP and GPR specific engines, all 800 engines are power valve engines all are 120 hp, with an upright kit a modded FP pipe and another intake manifold this engine would also be a good way to go.Without all those parts its a no go.

Kawasaki sxr800 engine, this would be a damn good place to start, easy bolt in and with an FP pipe,head , porting and carbs it will make some serious HP.

 

[Spooky]

aaaaand I went ahead and bought a 97 gp1200 tonight. It needs a quick rebuild, one of the jug bolts has broken off, but I got a hell of a deal. Figured I could triple pipe it with a mild port, up the compression with some reeds and intake/FA and be pushing some serious hp. Worse case, I just rebuild the thing and sell it. But I figure it should be fun to try to cram this thing in this tiny hull. I'm looking at widening the hull, top and bottom a minimum of 3" maybe more, especially the exhaust side of the top, figure I may have to have a "slight" bulge in the glass to fit the exhaust in, especially with the triple pipes.

Next I'm gonna start chopping up the hull. Feel free to post links to threads that talk about ideal length, width, rocker etc... I'm super new to this hull as well as this engine. I defoamed my SuperJet, and was wondering if I'm going to run into that same foam under the tray of this ski? What's the lightest you guys have gotten these hulls? Should I reinforce with carbon anywhere in particular? I'm planning on modding the seat to resemble a Blaster1, with almost a saddle type thing going on to keep my ass planted to the seat and not moving around.

Anyone see where I'm gonna have trouble? Ideas to solve any issues I've got headed my way? The power to weight on this should be pretty awesome, I'm shooting for around 2lbs per hp.

 

[Vumad]

Pull the 1200 engine. set it in the X2. Spec your clearance. Rebuild the GP1200. Ride the GP1200. Do most of the X2 work while you enjoy the GP1200. You might even be able to find another broken motor to work on your X2 with, then put your good motor in it later. The GP1200 motor is going to be a heck of a job. All of the problems of a Yamaha 701 conversion and the Kawi 1100 conversion all rolled into one.

I still vote a worked 701 motor or a kawi 800 motor, but if you value power in the garage over time on the lake, you're on a good track. Let me know how it goes. I have a broken gp1200 here.