How to Resleeve 64x 760 cylinder

air blair

you are the reason
Never done it but here I go. 300°f now kicked it up to 350. Beating the old one out. Not sliding in and out. Hmmm am I doing it right? IMG_20220226_151126773.jpg
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air blair

you are the reason
Finally. ... Got her with some luck and cleaned up the sleeve bore. She didn't slide right in but the one I didn't need to replace wanted to fall right out as I was tapping new one in. Time to clean the stoneware before the wife knows. Haha
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Jr.

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Next time you use the kitchen oven, leave a nice coating of Klotz on the bores.
if your gonna P off the little lady, at least make the house have that Racy aroma!

seriously, you probably didnt let it heat soak long enough. or the bad sleeve was distorted enough, it wouldnt leave clean. For me, you used an over to do it, so im good! I really cringe when someone does this with the BBQ grill!
carry on!

P
 
I've done it a few times and they've always com out easily with light taping if a deadblow. Maybe the old sleeve was deformed. I use an oven 350deg or so and leave it in there a long time, couple hours usually because I tend to find something else to do and forget about it.
 

WFO Speedracer

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I have done a bunch of them I had an old oven I put in the shop and used it there, usually 350 is not hot enough the magic setting seems to be between 425-450 degrees and Paul is right it takes a while to heat soak, get it to the right temp and they slide right out, I freeze the new sleeves before the heating process is ever started, throw the cylinder back in for a few minutes, then you have about 30-45 seconds to get the sleeve slid in and ports lined up before it doesn't move anymore.
 

JetManiac

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If the old sleeve is damaged in the ports, then often there is sleeve material pushed out. In that case, sleeve cannot be removed by heating, but needs to bored out and collapsed when the sleeve is thin enough.
 
Thanks for this thread guys! I was about to have my cylinder re-sleeved on one side at a shop but I think I can handle the sleeve swap now. All I need is the help to bore match the new piston. Any recommendations on good stock bore sleeves for a 701 61x? Assuming it would need to be all oem porting since I’m only doing one side.

One other question I had, I don’t know if I’ll run into this yet, but does anyone know if there would be a runability issue if the other side of the cylinder ends up being 0.25mm over stock once it gets cleaned up? I’d likely do both sides over 0.25mm if I ran into that, but just want to know if it would be okay to do from a motor performance standpoint or a major no-no. First time through the rebuild process. Thanks!
 

WFO Speedracer

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I do have to add one thing a couple of threads up there was a comment about leaving the cylinder in the oven for a couple of hours. what you are doing is heat treating the liner, if you leave it in that long, now the material is hard as a brick bat, I have had my cylinder guy bitch a few times when I left the cylinder in too long or had to heat it up too much , he can tell by the chatter on the boring bar if the hardness has been increased or not.

As far as the comment above do yourself a favor do it once and do it right the first time, different sized cylinders is not doing the job right and the replacement sleeve is going to have to be bored anyway, they are undersized and have to be bored to stock cylinder size , bore both holes the same size an put in two new pistons..

Heat Treatment Steel: Hardening​

The intent of hardening is not just to harden the steel, but also to make it stronger. Unfortunately, there aren’t just plusses to hardening. While hardening does increase strength, it also decreases ductility, making the metal more brittle. After hardening, you may need to temper the metal to remove some of the brittleness.

To harden most steels, you would use the first two stages of heat treatment (slow temperature heat followed by soaking by a specified time to a uniform temperature), the third stage is different. When you harden metals, you rapidly cool them by plunging them into water, oil, or brine. Most steels require rapid cooling, called quenching, to be hardened, but there are a few that can be successfully air-cooled.

As alloys are added to steel, the cooling rate that’s required to harden it decreases. There is a silver lining to this: the slower cooling rate lessens the risk of either cracking or warping. The hardness of carbon steel depends on its carbon content: up to .80% carbon, the ability to harden increases alongside the carbon content. Beyond .80%, you can increase wear resistance due to hard cementite forming, but you can’t increase hardness.

When you add alloys to steel to increase its hardness, you also increase the carbon’s ability to harden and strengthen. That means that the carbon content needed to produce the highest level of hardness is lower in alloyed steels versus plain carbon steels. As a result, alloy steels typically offer better performance than plain carbon steels. .

When carbon steel is hardened, the steel must be cooled to under 1000°F in less than one second. But, once you add alloys to the steel and increase the effectiveness of the carbon, you increase that time limit beyond one second. That allows you to select a slower quenching medium to get the specified hardness.

Typically, carbon steels are quenched in brine or water, whereas alloy steels are quenched in oil. Unfortunately, quenching is a process that produces high internal stress and, to relieve the steel, one option is to temper it. Right before the part becomes cold, you remove it from the quenching bath at a temperature of 200°F and let it air cool. The range of temperature from room temperature to 200°F is called the “cracking range,” and you don’t want the steel in the quenching medium to pass through it. Read on to learn more about tempering.
 
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I do have to add one thing a couple of threads up there was a comment about leaving the cylinder in the oven for a couple of hours. what you are doing is heat treating the liner, if you leave it in that long, now the material is hard as a brick bat, I have had my cylinder guy bitch a few times when I left the cylinder in too long or had to heat it up too much , he can tell by the chatter on the boring bar if the hardness has been increased or not.

As far as the comment above do yourself a favor do it once and do it right the first time, different sized cylinders is not doing the job right and the replacement sleeve is going to have to be bored anyway, they are undersized and have to be bored to stock cylinder size , bore both holes the same size an put in two new pistons..

Heat Treatment Steel: Hardening​

The intent of hardening is not just to harden the steel, but also to make it stronger. Unfortunately, there aren’t just plusses to hardening. While hardening does increase strength, it also decreases ductility, making the metal more brittle. After hardening, you may need to temper the metal to remove some of the brittleness.

To harden most steels, you would use the first two stages of heat treatment (slow temperature heat followed by soaking by a specified time to a uniform temperature), the third stage is different. When you harden metals, you rapidly cool them by plunging them into water, oil, or brine. Most steels require rapid cooling, called quenching, to be hardened, but there are a few that can be successfully air-cooled.

As alloys are added to steel, the cooling rate that’s required to harden it decreases. There is a silver lining to this: the slower cooling rate lessens the risk of either cracking or warping. The hardness of carbon steel depends on its carbon content: up to .80% carbon, the ability to harden increases alongside the carbon content. Beyond .80%, you can increase wear resistance due to hard cementite forming, but you can’t increase hardness.

When you add alloys to steel to increase its hardness, you also increase the carbon’s ability to harden and strengthen. That means that the carbon content needed to produce the highest level of hardness is lower in alloyed steels versus plain carbon steels. As a result, alloy steels typically offer better performance than plain carbon steels. .

When carbon steel is hardened, the steel must be cooled to under 1000°F in less than one second. But, once you add alloys to the steel and increase the effectiveness of the carbon, you increase that time limit beyond one second. That allows you to select a slower quenching medium to get the specified hardness.

Typically, carbon steels are quenched in brine or water, whereas alloy steels are quenched in oil. Unfortunately, quenching is a process that produces high internal stress and, to relieve the steel, one option is to temper it. Right before the part becomes cold, you remove it from the quenching bath at a temperature of 200°F and let it air cool. The range of temperature from room temperature to 200°F is called the “cracking range,” and you don’t want the steel in the quenching medium to pass through it. Read on to learn more about tempering.
Thanks for the info! does anyone have the alloy composition for oem cylinders? If so I could look up or create the time, temperature transformation (TTT) curves for them, and could help share a heat treatment plan that would return the cylinders close to their original hardnesses through slow stepped cooling. Would be the first time I actually used my degree for something useful lmao.
 
Well, you would remove both Cast Iron Sleeves during the Cylinder Block Heating Step as they will literally both fall out.

At that time, you can decide to insert one New Sleeve and the other Old Sleeve, OR, you can insert Two Identical Brand New Sleeves as done in Post #6...

Then you just need the First Bore & Hone for the New Sleeves and New Identical First Size Pistons. No Medieval Magic Heat Treatment necessary.

Up to you. Although I would worry about the Used Cylinder and Piston Components' existing wear and tear...

In both cases, you still got to make a couple of trips to the Machine Shop. Have to install New Top End Gaskets, New Spark Plugs, rebuild Both Carbs, do a Leak Down Test.

Only "savings" are one Piston Kit and one Boring Job. You would still need to Hone the Old Sleeve and probably should install New Rings. Same amount of Labor to re-assemble and also to Break-In the Engine.

Save the Metallurgy and Heat Treatment processes for the Blade Smith Competition in "Forged with Fire".

"It will Keel"
I didn’t realize the sleeves would fall right out after a short period, I thought they would be soaking for multiple hours at 400+F and still need some convincing with a deadblow to come out according to the comments above.
 

WFO Speedracer

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Location
Alabama
I didn’t realize the sleeves would fall right out after a short period, I thought they would be soaking for multiple hours at 400+F and still need some convincing with a deadblow to come out according to the comments above.
No I clearly said do not heat them up that long , I am not trying to give a metallurgy class either, I am just relaying something that I have had happen and it will happen if you heat the cylinders up for hours on end, I have never heated any that long a period and have still seen hardness changes in the sleeves, Of course I have changed out a bunch of sleeves in my day as well, my cylinder guy bores a lot of cylinders and he could tell the hardness had been changed, work as fast as you can is all I am saying. Maybe I need to start a how not to change liners in a 760 thread lol
 

WFO Speedracer

A lifetime ban is like a lifetime warranty !
Location
Alabama
I don't have all the answers but I do share things I have found from my years of experience in repairing personal watercraft, take it or leave it up to you, cooling temps on skis run around 130-185 degrees what that temp translates into at liner I do not know, chances are no one else does either.
 
So what happens to the Sleeves during normal Engine Operation?

How hot do the Sleeves get and for how long?

Wouldn't normal operation heat the Sleeves and effect their Microstructure, harden and embrittle them?

Is that why SXR 800 Sleeves have a tendency to crack?
Possibly, but 15-30 mins at 200-300f is a lot different than several hours at 400 where it can actually soak and hold that consistent temp long enough for change. I’m gonna just give it 15-20 mins at a time and try to tap them out
 
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