Freestyle Limited class of Freestyle in competition

In reference to requiring certain tricks and banning others let's not forget it's called FREESTYLE. If the point is to stop riders from doing the same tricks over and over (BF, 1 footed BF, Superflip, 2 in a row,3 in a row,etc.) only score 1 of each trick. If you require certain tricks, than you kill innovation. Back in the 90's guys used to have new tricks every stop. Great to see people talking and trying to improve the sport.


my idea was not freestyle, it was compulsory. This method of competition has worked in gymnastics and other sports for decades and is a great way to familiarize new riders to the tricks being done in the sport. I see it as a great way to bring up riders. As far a killing innovation, I think you have it all wrong. Innovation comes when they move up to the next level. Remember this is class is to take green riders and give them experience.. You won't be seeing superflips in this class, just like you don't see kids in MX scrubbing a 9 years old.... (before you post a vid, I'm sure some kid can)
 
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Innovation also occurs by accident--messing up one trick can create a new trick. Even at the pro level I think F/S is suffering from a lack of imagination. New tricks may have to come from new riders.
I like the idea of a few mandatory tricks mixed up with your own choice of tricks more than having a total compulsory routine. That seems like it would take some of the fun out of it.
 
Innovation also occurs by accident--messing up one trick can create a new trick. Even at the pro level I think F/S is suffering from a lack of imagination. New tricks may have to come from new riders.
I like the idea of a few mandatory tricks mixed up with your own choice of tricks more than having a total compulsory routine. That seems like it would take some of the fun out of it.

I agree.
 

raytherace

Canadian Brapp Dealer
Location
St-Ray Beach, QC
This is what Scott answer me :

1th mail: Remi,
My opinions on this subject are kind of split into two categories, my personal beliefs and my beliefs as the IJSBA Executive Director.

IJSBA Opinion:
There is nothing stopping a Limited Freestyle Class from happening. Limited Class exists and the rules are already established, published, and people are familiar with tech inspecting Limiteds. So, any promoter that wants to offer Limited Freestyle is free to do it. It has a chance of appearing at World Finals if sufficient participation for the class exists and there is a strong demand for it at the World Finals level. It is work noting that I have offered this class before as a “Sick Trick” contest and there was ZERO response despite a floodgate of people assuring me it would happen. You should note that Limited Class is 850CC.

Personal Opinion:
I do not think the class will be successful. Freestyle without big horsepower (on flat water anyway) is hard to watch. Look what has happened to Pro Freestyle , it has turned into a backflip variation contest where the average rider has lost touch with doing anything as a “routine.”
A few years back, when I was judging Freestyle at the Kings Cup, someone came out and did a completely old school freestyle set that was probably on a Limited (or a heap of a Freestyle boat). The set looked like it was a routine and he executed the tricks about the skill of a seasoned regional amateur in the pre backflip days. I have him a score in the low 9’s for the originality of it and executing it well. In his second set, he did only an old school routine and I dropped him back into the 8’s. People were excited the first time they saw it but that rider has done that type of show a couple of times since then and nobody really gets interested anymore.
I do think the idea is right and that anytime we can offer an affordable option to anyone who wants to experience competition we should make efforts to do so. I do not think crowds will respond to it if it doesn’t have extreme horsepower.
However, if we can keep our focus that this an introductory class and don’t expect too much out of it, I think it has the potential to have a sustainable life on some level.

I would like you to keep something in mind when you compare Runabouts to Freestyle.
First, there are literally a million plus runabouts around the globe. By contrast, there a significantly fewer standups. You would expect by pure statistics that that there are more runabout classes. However, it isn’t really like that either. It is a situation of the global racers that have come to World Finals have split off into many different types of runabout categories as closed course racing has evolved. Freestyle has been kept in more of a narrow circle and the direction has been dictated by the Freestyle competitors (Kemnitz has posted a totally misleading comment… all of the requests presented to IJSBA were implemented but we did them over a two-three year pace as opposed to all at once).

Anyway, all of this is a discussion, my opinions can change and I hope your mind is open too.
Scott

2nd mail :
Hello again Remi,
If you are talking about the small kid from Portugal he is very good.
Again, I want to make it clear that it is the policy of IJSBA to encourage these types of classes when they are well organized and have potential. If a real demand show up for regional events then it can work its way up to World Finals.
I understand the concept, and it is a good one. However, I have a hard time seeing this as a reality but I hope the people show up and do it and all the people talking are serious. I would recommend that if this class is created at grass roots levels that it is run in 1 minute segments instead of two.
I am not sure if you are aware but the Limited Rule is already 850cc maximum as is Stock. You would have some problems if you tried to make a separate Limited displacement limit. However, the 50cc difference without porting and the quality cylinders is really nothing. Most people report going from 800 to 850 cc actually robs power in some areas.
Scott
 

DK-Freestyle

2011 World Champion
Location
Oakley, CA
Why does freestyle have to follow limited specs? Freestyle is nothing like racing, they're almost 2 different sports, let's give them 2 different rules. 850 is way too much for a beginner class, too.

This class may not be a success the first year, but I can almost guarantee it'll take off in the next couple years. Tons of people out there who want to compete, but don't because they don't have a competitive ski.
 

rubbertoe

X-H20 certified
Location
San Diego
interesting thread for sure. i think this subject is detrimental to the future of the sport ..out west here a lot of people trying to ban 2 strokes & pwc water contact period, if we don't offer some positive exposure,i think we all know were it's heading.i like the idea of an affordable class that young people can compete (and afford to compete)after all they are the future of the sport .professionals will always have there place and be the main event,but why not give others a chance ?it will just make the main event that much better and maybe bring more appeal to the sport ? idk...
 

raytherace

Canadian Brapp Dealer
Location
St-Ray Beach, QC
3rd Mail:

Remi,
This is the point. Freestyle uses Modified Class Rules. You have asked me for the rules for Limited Class and that was the link I sent. When people are asking for Limited Class Freestyle then those are the rules and allowed modifications for any class designated as Limited. Freestyle is the type of activity, Limited is the category of rules to be applied to the activity.
Scott

4rd Mail:

Please see our previous discussion.? There is, performance wise, almost zero noticed performance gain for the additional 50cc in Limited or Stock Class.? The 50cc provision is there so people with OEM cylinders can bore them to maximum capacity when they need to repair them.? If anything, the extra 50 CC will set people back in Freestyle.? I am concerned some of the discussion may be compromised by some lack of understanding about the rules and the equipment.
Scott

 
Semantics (from Greek sēmantiká, neuter plural of sēmantikós)[1][2] is the study of meaning. It focuses on the relation between signifiers, such as words,phrases, signs and symbols, and what they stand for, their denotata.
Linguistic semantics is the study of meaning that is used to understand human expression through language. Other forms of semantics include the semantics of programming languages, formal logics, and semiotics.
The word "semantics" itself denotes a range of ideas, from the popular to the highly technical. It is often used in ordinary language to denote a problem of understanding that comes down to word selection or connotation

my point was it was just words we getting held up by... just call it something else.

sorry, not an english professor. I thought I was using the word correctly, if not sorry.
 

rubbertoe

X-H20 certified
Location
San Diego
Am and Pro is really all that's needed.
Sack up, compete and ride your a$$ off.[/QUOTE]
i think we were talking about growing the sport,is this your plan ? if so its,pretty much stating the obvious of whats current..???
 
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rubbertoe

X-H20 certified
Location
San Diego
no ,i just think things needs to keep evolving (not comparing it to x games,world finals are totally different)i mean c'mon if things aren't open to changes ??how are they evolving
 
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GIL

Power In The Hands Of Few
Location
Cullman AL
I still keep the same opinion-if you compete for more than anything than fun, you will be sorely dis-appointed.
 

baxt3r

BBQ
Location
Charlotte, NC
Masters Freestyle was on the sign up sheet last year... 0 entries.

How many people out there are still riding after passing the age threshold for Masters? How many people out there are younger and want a chance to compete but are scared they will be upstaged by someone who competes in Am but should be considered pro? Upstaged may not be the right term, so much as embarrassed. In several things I have competed in, I was always terrified that I would be mocked or insulted by my comparative la k of ability. That kept me from competing until I was exposed to some form of peer pressure. I am sorry, but there are probably lots of people out there who can't backflip, but can ride their hood and would LOVE to compete but can't bring themselves to do so because there are people with super-deep pockets who can outshine them on their best day. I am one of those people. I can't afford to buy a stroked engine and/or an aftermarket hull and I know I can't afford to compete with such a person even with equal skill. A limited/stock class would afford me the opportunity to be on what I would view as a level playing field. I cannot justify an entry fee into an even and a membership into an association knowing my competitive efforts will for naught. Using the masters class as an example seems to me like the person using that reasoning enjoys beating up on over-classed noobs and couldn't care less about guys like me. I would love to compete, but on a level(ish) playing field. From where I am standing, a lot of amateur competitors should be in pro. I have been to a coule events. I could see a clear distinction between an amateur and a pro competitor. I could also see when someone should have been moved up to pro.

My opinion is that if you are seeing no reason to have a novice/limited/beginner class, you are looking from too far up the mountain. If you want freestyle to die, have a voice against allowing a true amateur to compete on a fair playing field. Remember, the one true amateur may be the one who brings 100 riders to the sport.b and more riders can't do anything but make us a more credible group. Power in numbers. We, as 2-stroke riders have quite the uphill battle ahead of us, and we are against many formidable opponents.
 
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