oil vs. oil vs. oil???
- Thread starter jacob06
- Start date
- Location
- West Bloomfield, MI
y not take a motor and run a dyno test. and after each pull take the tank and carbs and clean them and then swap oils. my theory would be that the oil that reduces friction the most must add a few RPM's, HP #'s, or Torque #'s. but also it the motor wears more because of one oil being crappy and then you run a oil that actually might be good after it then that 3's for that oil would be lower.
just a theory but if you had some money you could get like 5 identical motors take them bore them and make them all almost exactly the same then dyno test a different oil in each motor it could be more accurate.
just a thought to ponder but sure is a expensive one.
just a theory but if you had some money you could get like 5 identical motors take them bore them and make them all almost exactly the same then dyno test a different oil in each motor it could be more accurate.
just a thought to ponder but sure is a expensive one.
i have to insert my foot in my mouth here.it turns out that viscosity breakdown only applies to motors that recirculate oil over and over again and not thier ability to reduce wear or friction.what i'm interested in is film strength.anyway,i also found that article on google about the penzoil and the aircraft engines,but it didnt say what the other oils were. considering that penzoil conducted the test and published the results,i dont imagine that they would've used maxima 927 or amsoil as their compitition.but that doesnt rule anything out for me and thank you for your post.i also found out that the issue with castor oils leaving residues in mild limited set-ups to be true only if you ran it some years ago.now a days the stuff available is degummed and you can run it in anything.i'm still waiting for the pm's about my weedeaters.i'm figuring this needs to be done,if for nothing else just the shear fun of it.so far the info i'm finding is pointing towards castor oil being the best but nobody is compairing this between different brands or directly towards the brands in question at walmart.this has been fun,but i'm going to sleep now and i'll be running my gallon of bean oil until somebody finds me some dam weedeaters
- Location
- atlanta ga
the problem with it is unless you have a big bore 6 mil stroker weedeater your not going to find out anything. most oil should be ok for stock or limited set up.you said your trying to find out if it works on high performance motor.
Y
yamaslut
Guest
paragraphs are your friend... try using them once in a while...
20 lines of text w/o breaks is a bit annoying to read...
:brap:
20 lines of text w/o breaks is a bit annoying to read...
:brap:
Flash-FX
No Square..No Round..FX-1
- Location
- South Jersey Shore
Your neighbors will love you with the sound of 5 weed eaters going :brap::brap::brap:all day long :bigeyes
synchronized on the test stand). Don't forget to siphon out some bilge water to spray into the carbs to make the test "lifelike". Good luck....I'd like to see the test results.:biggthumpup:
synchronized on the test stand). Don't forget to siphon out some bilge water to spray into the carbs to make the test "lifelike". Good luck....I'd like to see the test results.:biggthumpup:
Mark44
Katie's Boss
- Location
- 100% one place
Just a tangent FYI that should relate back to us:
i have a good friend, an expenerienced mechanic from Germany. With many years of experience in IRL, AMLS Viper team, and small open wheel classes.
On one particular car i grew up around (a open wheel FF car) he swore by Full Synthetic. But claimed after a couple dozen races the cylider walls would get too slick, droping compression. The fix was to run conventional oil in the motor for a few laps and the compression would go back up. So this tells me there is a difference in oil in a the automotive community (and this can be prooven 100 times over). So my best assumtion is that there is a difffernce in oil in the 2 stroke community. What the exact differences are, im not sure. But i will continue to buy what i belive is good oil, NOT shatty 10$ a gallon penzoil BS.
i have a good friend, an expenerienced mechanic from Germany. With many years of experience in IRL, AMLS Viper team, and small open wheel classes.
On one particular car i grew up around (a open wheel FF car) he swore by Full Synthetic. But claimed after a couple dozen races the cylider walls would get too slick, droping compression. The fix was to run conventional oil in the motor for a few laps and the compression would go back up. So this tells me there is a difference in oil in a the automotive community (and this can be prooven 100 times over). So my best assumtion is that there is a difffernce in oil in the 2 stroke community. What the exact differences are, im not sure. But i will continue to buy what i belive is good oil, NOT shatty 10$ a gallon penzoil BS.
bit
Rider Mod Needed
- Location
- Catfish, NC
I don't see how price relates to saddiness, BUT the full synthetic Penzoil is $25 a gallon plus tax at Wal-Mart. That is only about $1.50 cheaper a gallon then Amzoil Dominator if you buy 4 at a time.
well i have come to learn that you DO get what you pay for in 99% of the worlds products. Now if u have found that the cheapo penzoil performs like oil 2 or 3 times as expense, then rock on. But for some reason, i have a feeling price more or less directly relates to the quality of oil.
well, i have to disagree with you as far as price being a reflection of quality.look at the auto motive industry. jaguar,mercedese,bmw, and landrover .have some of the worst consumer reliability ratings.according to consumer reports and j.d. power.and toyota is the the best.oh and dont forget cadilac with their 32 valve northstar boat anchor.i have found that the trend is if you can afford the expensive vehicles that they assume you wont mind paying thru the nose to keep them running.
but none of thats really relevant here.thruogh the research i've been doing so far in the last day with google,is pointing towards castrol brand castor oil having the highest film strength ratings but they havent been compared to the oils in queastion here.
the only reason i suspect castrol and penzoils quality being on par with these other oils is the fact that they actually get it out of the ground and to the customer,without middle men.
as far as needing a stroker motoor to test it in. i thought the same thing to at first but were just talking about metal to metal here to the point of damage occuring.so while a weedeater is a far cry from an 800 cc watercraft engine,if it lasts longer in the weedeater it should last longer in the stroker.
Its a far cry to claim a honda accord is better than a 5 series just because you spend more money on the 5 series in maint. Yes high end cars tend to have slighlty worse and in some cases pitiful reliability. But the day the automotive world is judged strickly on long term reliability is the same day pigs fly. As you said, its not relevant. You can continue to belive there is no relationship between price and quality as a whole, but I still think you are mistaken. Next time your in a gas station, buy the little premade turkey sandwich right next to those mexican tiny taco things. Then go to your local deli and tell me which is better, i have a feeling the gas station turkey is gonna suck. Point in hand, like i said 99 % of products have a higher price = higher quality relationship, now of course this is a generalization so dont get all extremist with me.
Now using a weedwacker. The plans would be to test 1 engine and 1 oil at a time? That hardley prooves anything, considering i have seen weedwackers last 1hr or 3 years of daily use; both being treated the realitivly the same (no benchmark to work from). IMO buying weedwackers is a waste of money, inless you can afford about 10-20 weedwackers per oil in question. That way you can get a half accurate average. And even then, its a strech.
a 5 series bmw is certainly a better/nicer car than a honda accord.at least until it breaks.or in the hondas case IF it breaks.
i wasnt fully aware or the weedeater industry's lack of q.c. for thier products.i simply suggested weedeaters as they are a cheap easily accquired 2 stroke platform to base this all on.if anyone has a better idea,please speak up.
these things always steer away from the original point by the 2nd page.so here it is again.if all these companies have "the best oil" ?and its all made out of the same stuff, then what is the purpose of buying the more expensive stuff?were 2 pages deep now and nobody has produced more than an opinion.to buy and base an opinion of a product just on price without undrstanding the companies practices or abilities to produce a product is no more accurate than me wanting to test them all on used weedeaters from a pawn shop.
every company is in business to make a profit.its easier for large companies than small ones.
to get amsoil ,you got to go through some kind of weird@ss paramid sceme.even if you are a dealer,its still not very cheap.anyone that sells it will tell you that they dont even make hardly any money off of it.they only sell it to keep thier customers happy.most jetski dealers will tell you they dont sell it because they dont make any money off of it.dont get me wrong,i'm not doubting the quality of thier products.but i think the way that they are marketed has more to do with the price than the quality.
i've have though found the answer to my question. castor based lubricants retain more film strength than synthetic or petroleum based oils.in that order.so that knocks the penzoil and castrol synthetics from walmart and the amsoil synthetics out of the picture.the synthetics come very close and without major scientific equipment,its hard to tell the difference.but that still leaves the question of which one is better.
so that leaves klotz and maxima 927...
...and oh yeah,i was told that the non synthetic or semi synthetic castrol at walmart,the cheaper one,says on the back of the bottle that its made with castor oil.but while i've used this stuff in my limited boats i didnt read the lable.i've searched the castrol site up and down and cannot find anything on the oils they have at walmart.they do however have a semi synthetic liquid cooled 2 stroke oil thats made for motorcycles thats made with castor oil.it doesnt say how much it costs but they have it.it also says that they have been making lubricants for combustion engines for 100 years.and that numberous speed records on land and in the air have been set with motors oiled with castrol.i was also told that the name castrol is castor and oil squished together and that using castor beans to make thier lubricants is what put them where they are.
it makes you wonder
i wasnt fully aware or the weedeater industry's lack of q.c. for thier products.i simply suggested weedeaters as they are a cheap easily accquired 2 stroke platform to base this all on.if anyone has a better idea,please speak up.
these things always steer away from the original point by the 2nd page.so here it is again.if all these companies have "the best oil" ?and its all made out of the same stuff, then what is the purpose of buying the more expensive stuff?were 2 pages deep now and nobody has produced more than an opinion.to buy and base an opinion of a product just on price without undrstanding the companies practices or abilities to produce a product is no more accurate than me wanting to test them all on used weedeaters from a pawn shop.
every company is in business to make a profit.its easier for large companies than small ones.
to get amsoil ,you got to go through some kind of weird@ss paramid sceme.even if you are a dealer,its still not very cheap.anyone that sells it will tell you that they dont even make hardly any money off of it.they only sell it to keep thier customers happy.most jetski dealers will tell you they dont sell it because they dont make any money off of it.dont get me wrong,i'm not doubting the quality of thier products.but i think the way that they are marketed has more to do with the price than the quality.
i've have though found the answer to my question. castor based lubricants retain more film strength than synthetic or petroleum based oils.in that order.so that knocks the penzoil and castrol synthetics from walmart and the amsoil synthetics out of the picture.the synthetics come very close and without major scientific equipment,its hard to tell the difference.but that still leaves the question of which one is better.
so that leaves klotz and maxima 927...
...and oh yeah,i was told that the non synthetic or semi synthetic castrol at walmart,the cheaper one,says on the back of the bottle that its made with castor oil.but while i've used this stuff in my limited boats i didnt read the lable.i've searched the castrol site up and down and cannot find anything on the oils they have at walmart.they do however have a semi synthetic liquid cooled 2 stroke oil thats made for motorcycles thats made with castor oil.it doesnt say how much it costs but they have it.it also says that they have been making lubricants for combustion engines for 100 years.and that numberous speed records on land and in the air have been set with motors oiled with castrol.i was also told that the name castrol is castor and oil squished together and that using castor beans to make thier lubricants is what put them where they are.
it makes you wonder
jetskiking
Im done sanding!!!
- Location
- Dallas Georgia
I'll tell you what, I'm going to walmart tonight to buy some cheap pos castrol. Like I told you when I was at your house today I swear it said it was castor when I bought it last time they were out of penzoil. Like I said earlier I have noticed no unusual wear using the synthetic. I have also started this season with a brand new limited motor and check frequently with no scuffing. On the other hand this is not a stroker which places greater forces on the cylinder walls because of the increased rod angle. I would play it safe and get the "quality" oil in your motor since you can get it cheap :sneaky:
As far as the car analogy, yes I would agree that cars are usually bought for other purpose than reliability but mechanical reliabilty is what is being discussed. If reliabilty were the reason I bought cars (which it is) I would take a Honda or Toyota over a Benz or Beamer anyday. If prestige or style drove my decision on car purchases then I would get the Benz or BMW, but lets face it prestige and style dont get you down the road.
As far as the car analogy, yes I would agree that cars are usually bought for other purpose than reliability but mechanical reliabilty is what is being discussed. If reliabilty were the reason I bought cars (which it is) I would take a Honda or Toyota over a Benz or Beamer anyday. If prestige or style drove my decision on car purchases then I would get the Benz or BMW, but lets face it prestige and style dont get you down the road.
skatebros
it's just a habit
- Location
- san diego, ca
with liberty and just us for oil
'Crockett
Freelance Smartass
I ran Super M in my strokers for years . . . no problems . . . still run it in my ski's today. Several guys I know like to run Klotz.
To answer your question directly though . . . . . .
If you really want to know what oil to run and at what ratio, because you're worried about damaging your Lamey stroker motor then why not ask Dan (Lamey) himself what he would recommend ?
You should be able to get a hold of him to answer your questions thorough his ATV Performance site . . . . .
Link:
www.dasaracing.com
To answer your question directly though . . . . . .
If you really want to know what oil to run and at what ratio, because you're worried about damaging your Lamey stroker motor then why not ask Dan (Lamey) himself what he would recommend ?
You should be able to get a hold of him to answer your questions thorough his ATV Performance site . . . . .
Link:
www.dasaracing.com
madoyster
01/10/08
- Location
- The Durty South
No Chit, I quit reading after the 3rd line.
honestly ,me and a freind were just debating if the cheap stuff couldve been just as good.it's really not that big of deal to have to buy hi perf oil,in order to know you did the right thing for your toy.
usually on this site,if you have a question, you can post it ,and somebody will come back with a direct answer ,or the exact science of it all to convince you.sorry to have to raise all that helll ,but i figured somebody would pipe up if enough was said.
thanks for all the input,
i'm out
usually on this site,if you have a question, you can post it ,and somebody will come back with a direct answer ,or the exact science of it all to convince you.sorry to have to raise all that helll ,but i figured somebody would pipe up if enough was said.
thanks for all the input,
i'm out
Ok, Here is a little you need to know before doing this little test.
1st off.... Oil does not burn!!!!! It lubricates & passes thru the motor.
What happens is, The oil is mixed in your tank, Stays into suspension until the air fuel mixture is atomized. Then the oil comes out of suspension & moves or in a better discribtion "rolls" along all the internal parts of the engine , lubricating as it goes. The smell or smoke Happens when the oil is heated thru the combustion process, then it exits thru the exhaust. So that is the basic life cycle......
Now to the test, Mix your given oil at a specified mix ratio. Say 50:1
now transfer the mixture from one container to another thru a 1/4" clear vinyl hose (siphon ) once in the hose, the oil should come out of suspension & "Roll" down the side of the tube. Keep increasing the mix ratio until your given oil does this & note the out come?
Repeat for all your given brands?
You will find that all the better oils will do this, the cheaper oils won't.
Obviously, there is much more to the chemical complexity of what happens & differant tests needed to measure "shear streangth" of the given oil, But this will give you a base line of what is good & what is bad.
It will also keep you out of the "Klink" & keep your local lawncare professional with his "wackers" :biggthumpup:
ski ya, Paul
BTW, I have done this with several brands & was quite surprised with the results, Please post what you find?
1st off.... Oil does not burn!!!!! It lubricates & passes thru the motor.
What happens is, The oil is mixed in your tank, Stays into suspension until the air fuel mixture is atomized. Then the oil comes out of suspension & moves or in a better discribtion "rolls" along all the internal parts of the engine , lubricating as it goes. The smell or smoke Happens when the oil is heated thru the combustion process, then it exits thru the exhaust. So that is the basic life cycle......
Now to the test, Mix your given oil at a specified mix ratio. Say 50:1
now transfer the mixture from one container to another thru a 1/4" clear vinyl hose (siphon ) once in the hose, the oil should come out of suspension & "Roll" down the side of the tube. Keep increasing the mix ratio until your given oil does this & note the out come?
Repeat for all your given brands?
You will find that all the better oils will do this, the cheaper oils won't.
Obviously, there is much more to the chemical complexity of what happens & differant tests needed to measure "shear streangth" of the given oil, But this will give you a base line of what is good & what is bad.
It will also keep you out of the "Klink" & keep your local lawncare professional with his "wackers" :biggthumpup:
ski ya, Paul
BTW, I have done this with several brands & was quite surprised with the results, Please post what you find?
Last edited:
bit
Rider Mod Needed
- Location
- Catfish, NC
I work for a company that owns 80% of the market share in the industry. We produce the best products hands down and at the lowest price. We have the lowest prices because we produce many of the raw materials used by the entire industry. We also design and license many of the common components used industry wide. We are not cheaper because are products are crap. We are cheaper because there is no market up on our raw materials or designs, and we can more effectively and efficiently get product out the door. When you are comparing companies with huge differences in volume sold and company resources I don’t think a 12% difference in price should throw up any “cheapo crap” flags.