I know there is more energy to unlock with oxygenated fuel vs non oxy fuels, but what are the risks of running these fuels? I've been told the same engine will run lean on oxy fuel. It sounds as though seizure risks are high. I imagine there is a whole library of books on the subject, but for those in the know: what's the crux of the issue between the fuels for us guys that know so little.
Freestyle Oxygenated vs non oxy fuels
- Thread starter Pablo
- Start date
Vumad
Super Hero, with a cape!
- Location
- St. Pete, FL
Double post.
Last edited:
Vumad
Super Hero, with a cape!
- Location
- St. Pete, FL
I know absolutely nothing about what you're asking, but I know a little about fire.
Fire works just like we do. We work because our body uses oxygen when our cells burn energy. With out oxygen, we die. However, if we are hyperoxygenated, we can go longer and stronger, although, with too much, we can pass out.
Fire works in the same way. It needs the right amount of oxygen to burn. The amount of oxygen is dependent upon the fuel being burned. Everything has an upper and lower flammable/explosive limit. Something may burn b/t 15% -70% oxygen. Under 15 or over 70, it will not burn. Fire works just like we do, even in that 15 to 70 range, more oxygen, more performance, less oxygen, less performance.
Fire is usually oxygen or fuel controlled. The air contains 21% oxygen. This means that only so much of the fuel can be burned at one time. It burns until the fire has consumed all the oxygen up to it's lower limited (15% in our example). After this, there's not enough oxygen to support combustion, and more air must be introduced before any more fuel can be consumed.
Increasing the oxygen content will increases the combustion. Unlike us (where we require other gasses, like CO2, etc), fire only needs the oxygen. Increase the oxygen concentration and the fire will burn hotter, stronger and consume more fuel. My bunker gear protects me from fire, but interesting fact, is that at 23% oxygen, my bunker gear burns readily. (not relevant to the topic, but still interesting).
Anyway, I'm not the best for motors, not yet anyway, but I get a few basic concepts. More oxygen means more fuel being burned. It means it burns stronger, but it also burns hotter. An amount of the fuel in the cylinder is used to cool the piston, so you can't burn all the fuel or you have leaning and over heating. you must add more fuel to compensate for more being burned. Add more oxygen, burn more fuel, cylinder becomes lean, add more fuel, still inefficient and incomplete combustion, but more power.
Sounds very similar to positive pressure. Add more air, you can add more fuel, get more explosion and more power. But, more air means more fuel burned, which means lean if you don't add enough fuel to cool the piston.
Anyway, all of the above is based on my assumptions of what I know. Fire is more complex than what I just explained, but I don't feel that going into more detail would really benefit the discussion. What I provided might help understand why leaning may occur however. You have to have something left over to absorb the heat.
Edit: probably not a problem in a fuel injected system that is running oxygen sensors in the exhaust. It would simply compensate by adding more fuel.
Fire works just like we do. We work because our body uses oxygen when our cells burn energy. With out oxygen, we die. However, if we are hyperoxygenated, we can go longer and stronger, although, with too much, we can pass out.
Fire works in the same way. It needs the right amount of oxygen to burn. The amount of oxygen is dependent upon the fuel being burned. Everything has an upper and lower flammable/explosive limit. Something may burn b/t 15% -70% oxygen. Under 15 or over 70, it will not burn. Fire works just like we do, even in that 15 to 70 range, more oxygen, more performance, less oxygen, less performance.
Fire is usually oxygen or fuel controlled. The air contains 21% oxygen. This means that only so much of the fuel can be burned at one time. It burns until the fire has consumed all the oxygen up to it's lower limited (15% in our example). After this, there's not enough oxygen to support combustion, and more air must be introduced before any more fuel can be consumed.
Increasing the oxygen content will increases the combustion. Unlike us (where we require other gasses, like CO2, etc), fire only needs the oxygen. Increase the oxygen concentration and the fire will burn hotter, stronger and consume more fuel. My bunker gear protects me from fire, but interesting fact, is that at 23% oxygen, my bunker gear burns readily. (not relevant to the topic, but still interesting).
Anyway, I'm not the best for motors, not yet anyway, but I get a few basic concepts. More oxygen means more fuel being burned. It means it burns stronger, but it also burns hotter. An amount of the fuel in the cylinder is used to cool the piston, so you can't burn all the fuel or you have leaning and over heating. you must add more fuel to compensate for more being burned. Add more oxygen, burn more fuel, cylinder becomes lean, add more fuel, still inefficient and incomplete combustion, but more power.
Sounds very similar to positive pressure. Add more air, you can add more fuel, get more explosion and more power. But, more air means more fuel burned, which means lean if you don't add enough fuel to cool the piston.
Anyway, all of the above is based on my assumptions of what I know. Fire is more complex than what I just explained, but I don't feel that going into more detail would really benefit the discussion. What I provided might help understand why leaning may occur however. You have to have something left over to absorb the heat.
Edit: probably not a problem in a fuel injected system that is running oxygen sensors in the exhaust. It would simply compensate by adding more fuel.
Nuklear6
I Dream 10' Surf!
I have used and experimented with a number of different ways to oxygenate fuels. Never in a jet ski application but alot with other performance 2 strokes. As matt said tune the carbs correctly and you will be fine. However in one particular application it took about 7% of one additive to truly make a noticeable increase in performance. But at that concentration the carb needed to be richer then i could go due to max diameter of the main jet circuit. We had to get creative with carb mods to get it to live at 7%. Keep in mind some this gets expensive and, depending on which additive you choose, some evaporate or dissipate pretty quick. This is more for competition use. I keep saying but never get the time do it but a cheap solution to make a small engine (well any engine) amazing is build a BUNCH of compression and use methanol. It would just take some r&d to get the carbs right.
Cannibal
Tasty Human
- Location
- Summit Lake, WA
Do you have a certain gas in particular you are looking at? Cause it would really depend on what you are running and what you are planning on running.
For instance, gasoline with 10% ethanol (E10) is stoichiometric at 14.13:1
Sunoco Racing 260 GT (100 octane) with 3.3% oxygen is stoichiometric at 14:1
Sunoco Racing RMR (94 octane) with 2.7% oxygen is stoichiometric at 14.2:1
If you are already running E10 gas, you should be able to run an oxygenated fuel with maybe only a tweek of the screws (depending on the fuel). But, if you are tuned for pure gas, you may need to richen up. However, how many of us never make any jet or screw changes from pure gas to E10.
For instance, gasoline with 10% ethanol (E10) is stoichiometric at 14.13:1
Sunoco Racing 260 GT (100 octane) with 3.3% oxygen is stoichiometric at 14:1
Sunoco Racing RMR (94 octane) with 2.7% oxygen is stoichiometric at 14.2:1
If you are already running E10 gas, you should be able to run an oxygenated fuel with maybe only a tweek of the screws (depending on the fuel). But, if you are tuned for pure gas, you may need to richen up. However, how many of us never make any jet or screw changes from pure gas to E10.
madness maker
John
- Location
- freaked on long island
i have run vp ms109 and q16 in some of the turbocharged automotive setups i have done,oxy fuel def makes more power over std race fuels from what ive seen,allowing for more agressive timing and boost, but req a careful retune over std fuels (more fuel) and the margin of error is a very small window before melting stuff.the other thing is they can be very harsh on fuel lines/carb components and shouldnt be left to sit for an extended amount of time in the lines or carbs etc.(the ms109 not as bad as the q16 as far as that goes) i havent played with oxy fuel on two strokes. (going to q 16 with a retune, over non oxy race fuel, i have seen 60-100 hp increases on turbocharged motors making in the 600 to 900hp range)
- Location
- wisconsin
The latent heat of evaporation are usually higher with oxygenated fuels meaning that the fuel absorbs more energy (heat) when it atomizes.This creates a much denser intake charge that makes more power. Most of the gain is from that vs. the extra oxygen in the fuel burning in the cumbustion process. This is why when you run this type of fuel your carbs are condensated and cold to the touch even in a warm engine bay. We like to run VP113 becuse it carries a moderate amount of oxygen and does a great job with high compression and resistance to detonation. Most of the gains from this type of fuel will be felt in the low end response of the engine which is also why it's sometimes hard to see an actual hp gain on a dyno. All that being said...jet up a bit and let it rip!
chadman154
#Itsonlymoney !!!!!
- Location
- Dirty south
Yeah, what he said ^
WFO Speedracer
A lifetime ban is like a lifetime warranty !
- Location
- Alabama
The most serious risk with these fuels is to your wallet.
chadman154
#Itsonlymoney !!!!!
- Location
- Dirty south
Bought vp113 last month 7.65 a gallon.... not too bad
GIL
Power In The Hands Of Few
- Location
- Cullman AL
VP CHP is all I run! IF you are running BlackJacks-I can tell you how to set your carbs up for oxy fuels and yes-it IS more power! ALOT more power!
- Location
- Near Seattle WA
Hahaha!
Excellent description of fuel theory, but I will add a simpler statement!
Fuel needs Oxygen to burn. The more oxygen, the hotter & quicker the flame, so if you can pack more oxgen (&fuel) into the combustion chamber and get it to burn quicker, then you will have a bigger "explosion" in the cylinder.
This translates into a harder hit (or accelleration), and you are instantly making more power.
More power means more fun.
All ethanol or oxygen enhanced fuels will require a jetting change. I would start with an approx 20% increase on the low speed and approx 10% on the high speed jets (not the screws). You might also benefit from reducing the P.O. pressure.
Best regards,
Randy