Pump differences

[Big Kahuna]

Okai, just to get this straight, none of the sponsored riders with the big stickers are getting any discount on the daily retail price on a given pump? And they have to pay themself for the big sticker?

In no world or universe can you justify a price of 7500 usd pump, without a good profit margin - hell im not saying you shouldnt make a decent profit on your products, but making it sound like you make no money is just funny IMO

Christian, Just trying to figure out what is up here, It is like your trying to pick a fight........... Also, where he said this "Ninja was 7500. Now they are 4500.", It is not $7500.00 now, that was when they first started selling them they were that price, now $4500.00. At that time, I would imagine they were "one off" pumps. Each on made by hand basically........ Just like when TPE came out with the 900 motor right before WF2014. There was only a few out there, one was in Phil's ski that Johnny Lefty competed on, That was the first time I met Erik. He went into detail how each of those cylinders was basically hand made at that point.

I will say this, 2 years ago I had an issue with my 148 pump. Sent the pump back to Brian. He checked it out. Only thing he could find was that my drive shaft may have been at max tolerance from bearing galling and the bore hole for the pump bearing may have been right at tolerance but still within spec, just close. He offered to exchange pumps with me and just ask that I cover cost of the Drive Shaft. Keep in mind, I did not buy the pump from him, I bought it new but never assembled from another member. Been running strong ever since.......

 

[Proformance1]

Glad your happy BK. Thats why were here.
We dont get on as often as we like to anymore as were so behind but as you know this site is why i ride and am in the business. I love it, and the people who are in it to help each other out. Great seeing you again in Daytona.

 

[Big Kahuna]

Glad your happy BK. Thats why were here.
We dont get on as often as we like to anymore as were so behind but as you know this site is why i ride and am in the business. I love it, and the people who are in it to help each other out. Great seeing you again in Daytona.

It was good seeing you as well.

 

[Christian_83]

Christian, Just trying to figure out what is up here, It is like your trying to pick a fight........... Also, where he said this "Ninja was 7500. Now they are 4500.", It is not $7500.00 now, that was when they first started selling them they were that price, now $4500.00. At that time, I would imagine they were "one off" pumps. Each on made by hand basically........ Just like when TPE came out with the 900 motor right before WF2014. There was only a few out there, one was in Phil's ski that Johnny Lefty competed on, That was the first time I met Erik. He went into detail how each of those cylinders was basically hand made at that point.

I will say this, 2 years ago I had an issue with my 148 pump. Sent the pump back to Brian. He checked it out. Only thing he could find was that my drive shaft may have been at max tolerance from bearing galling and the bore hole for the pump bearing may have been right at tolerance but still within spec, just close. He offered to exchange pumps with me and just ask that I cover cost of the Drive Shaft. Keep in mind, I did not buy the pump from him, I bought it new but never assembled from another member. Been running strong ever since.......

Im not trying to pick a fight, just get straight answers. This seems to be impossilbe from Brian @ Torrent.
The biggest problem in this freestyle industry, is people not asking questions - and some manufactors trying to claim they are 100x better than the other, but have no proof.
Bascilly im a bit fed up with average joe being fed all these lies or mis information. the freestyle scene is INSANELY expensive for what it is.
Torrent claiming to be vway suppirior to other pumps and claim to have messure to proof with . however they are so secret they will not share with the publiv.
To me this is straight up BS.

Same goes for 10.000 USD hulls and 7500 pumps, where they guys are bascilly not making money, and actually just doing us a favor selling these products.
I think they should make money and a profit on doing this stuff, my problem is that the truth getting twisted out of line.
Hell for what its worth i can stop replying on this site, seems that you cant ask certain questions that might offend people. This limints the use and idea of a forum. could be one of the reason, most of the knowledgable guys are quitting this place.

I guess most people when buying a new TV or carbon, if the product they are starring at, is 30% more expensive - ask why this is and what makes it better. And if the answer is - its just better, most people wont buy into that?

Im glad you are reffering to the TPE 900, as i bought one from the 2. batch. these shortblocks Erik sold for 7400 usd. In this quotation, he had to buy crank, cases and pistons from other campnies and making it harder to have a profitmargin on these AND this is still with Erik making the molds, design and testing for the engine and cylinder. My point is, if nobody think 7500 for a pump were all parts except bearrigns are made in house, and these 7500 is close to no profit - im shocked.

 

[Jcary85]

I’ve been loosely watching this thread and haven’t really seen an answer to the OPs question.... I have a similar question - I bought a setback skat 155 mag late last season as an upgrade from my OEM 155. Frankly, the difference wasn’t all that noticeable (even though everybody and their brother told me it would be night and day). I was a little disappointed with the quality. You could see very light rust on the welds on the veins (welding stainless is hard, I get it) and the fact it’s just pressed into a stock housing is kinda cheesy. With that being said, I’ve considered selling the mag and switching to one of the various one piece o-ring pumps around but couldn’t possibly justify unless I knew exactly the difference I’d see. Will I even see a difference between a skat and, say, a torrent or the other guy who sells one piece pumps fairly cheap (can’t remember the name - he’s foreign)?

 

[clouse22]

I’ve been loosely watching this thread and haven’t really seen an answer to the OPs question.... I have a similar question - I bought a setback skat 155 mag late last season as an upgrade from my OEM 155. Frankly, the difference wasn’t all that noticeable (even though everybody and their brother told me it would be night and day). I was a little disappointed with the quality. You could see very light rust on the welds on the veins (welding stainless is hard, I get it) and the fact it’s just pressed into a stock housing is kinda cheesy. With that being said, I’ve considered selling the mag and switching to one of the various one piece o-ring pumps around but couldn’t possibly justify unless I knew exactly the difference I’d see. Will I even see a difference between a skat and, say, a torrent or the other guy who sells one piece pumps fairly cheap (can’t remember the name - he’s foreign)?

Pump tuning is so much more than just swapping to a new housing/stator section. It is really an art form with each ski being unique. Jcary I know nothing about your ski and how it is setup just speaking in general here but there are so many factors that go into this question. Prop pitch, nozzle bore, nozzle type, steer nozzle, pump cone, hull, intake grate, motor, exhaust setup, etc. every factor of the ski affects the performance of the pump.

How many times do you see where people mimic the settings off of someone else and find that it doesn’t perform the same?

For example, I’ve had a buddy take his entire XS1200RR C3 driveline out of his helium hull and put into a tigercraft hull and they were completely different skis. Where we found the difference was in the tuning of the pump.

So to answer your question IMO a pump only performs to the level that it Is tuned.

As for the Torrent scenario I think there is merit in saying they’ve found measurable gains. Whether to share that info or not is their choice. Gomez and Chris Z are very good not just as riders but tuners as well. They can push a pump to its peak performance and are always looking for the next best thing. Hence the development of the ninja pump.

Sometimes in this sport we think we are just paying for the price of the product when in fact you are also paying for the knowledge and R&D that comes with it. For example, everyone that I know that has bought a torrent has been givin a very good starting point on what prop/nozzle to use. Could you imagine going into that part blind?

 

[Jcary85]

Totally agree pumps take tuning and all. I also understand you are buying the support - no doubt, that’s super valuable. I’m just curious, assuming you tune the Skat perfectly then tune the Torrent (or other one piece) perfectly, will you see a substantial difference? If so, what kind of difference? Just more hookup? More thrust everywhere? More thrust on the low end? I’ll spend money on parts that are worth it but I’ve personally gotten to a point where I need to see real info before buying something (e.g.- everybody said MSD TL made more power than zeel - totally not true, everybody said swap your stator to a mag, but only made a small difference, etc.)

 

[Chase Musetti]

I like the OP’s original question since my next upgrade is a 155 mag.

Most of the pumps seem to fall into the same price range give or take a couple hundred. So all I can go off is friends and other members experiences. I also consider the weight of the pumps- stainless vs aluminum.

Is the weight difference between an all aluminum pump vs all stainless pump enough justification to go with aluminum? Or is the added strength and longevity of stainless more valuable? On a mostly freshwater ski.

I honestly believe I’d get the best support and tuning help with going with torrent- but it is the higher priced model.

At the end of the day I just want that big chunk of money to be worth it..




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Christian_83]

Totally agree pumps take tuning and all. I also understand you are buying the support - no doubt, that’s super valuable. I’m just curious, assuming you tune the Skat perfectly then tune the Torrent (or other one piece) perfectly, will you see a substantial difference? If so, what kind of difference? Just more hookup? More thrust everywhere? More thrust on the low end? I’ll spend money on parts that are worth it but I’ve personally gotten to a point where I need to see real info before buying something (e.g.- everybody said MSD TL made more power than zeel - totally not true, everybody said swap your stator to a mag, but only made a small difference, etc.)

Thats just my point, thank you!
And for a manufactor claiming their product will be xx% better than the competitors, i will expect them to have some kind of benchmark, if you cant messurae it by weight, more HP output or likewise
We need to ask the right questions and get answers to these, when the products in our sport is so expensive - i think thats only fair.

 

[Storbeck]

I'm another guy that is debating if I should get a mag pump and what to get, none of this is helping lol.

I don't care how much somebody charges for their parts, they're worth what they're worth more power to you if you can make some great stuff and maybe make a buck....but I'm completely mystified how it is possible to create a pump that costs $7000+ to manufacture. Not in any way saying it isn't possible, but I'd be fascinated to hear how.

 

[MarkWalker]

After reading this whole thread. I believe it is safe to say that not one person will ever be able to retire comfortably on the money he made from building hulls, engines or pumps. This industry is mostly a "side deal" for all of those involved. It's such a small market. The giant customer base just isn't there. I can't even imagine the amount of "trial and error" that goes into every product. The R&D work. The after hours, weekends, nights and time away from their families. That being said I truly appreciate everything these guys do to make this "hobby" better.

 

[egbrig]

I too have read this thread. I should stay away but I've never been one to let people just get away with untruths, even at my own expense. Christian, you are correct in that there have been many "buy the new thing, it's so much better". Much $$$$ later, we find that we've fallen for it again.
Other issue, why are there so few new parts developed for our sport? Why? Because it takes money, time and learned knowledge but very few respect the knowledge part anymore, but as soon as something that pushes forward comes out, its ripped off (I've got a cnc) and now the innovator is out, leaving our sport with only snake oil salesmen parts. It's a world of "just give me the answer now".
There are several pump making guys out there now. Skat Trak, those that buy the Skat stater, and those that copy the Skat stater. What's the real difference? Why are their pricing so different when they are all Skat's or Skat copies (poopty one's included). Pay cheap, get cheap and NO HELP,or cheap and not last. So no, you won't see any real pump performance difference when they are all basically the same. You will hear some guys talking about how "his pump is better" BS, IT"S A SKAT in a new housing. Torrent has developed a new pump, very intricate changes that add up to a real difference. Torrent has access to aspects of how pumps really work that the rest don't, or even understand, hence much more $$$ invested. I have watched and watched how all these boats react with what hull, rider, engine, and now pump. I can watch a sad performing package/engine/pump with a good rider and the reverse. Also, ask the pump seller questions about how to tune the pump to your package. You'll get a half azzed answer's. Brian will, and does know, and will help you. All the others are useless, but go ahead save the few $$ and spend so much time (seasons) and money trying to get it right.
The new Ninja Pro is the next step in pump development/evolution, and its just a matter of time before some scumbag copies it (to a degree or best they can), calls it their own and Brian looses all the money and time he put into it, and at that time I will be a pain in arse to them. If you want to know what is what, just go the the World Finals and see what people are willing to spend money on to get to that level. All the rest is just noise. Also, if you ride a stainless/aluminum pump in salt, your asking for trouble down the road. That is such a stupid idea. FULL DISCLOSURE--- Brian is one of my best friends too and it's a great thing that I don't have to lie about his pumps, that would be much too difficult a task to do all the time. Being honest takes so much less effort.
So:
1: What and how do you ride?
2: What are you going to put this in? Package: hull, engine, ect.
3: Budget:
That is where you start.

 

[Christian_83]

I too have read this thread. I should stay away but I've never been one to let people just get away with untruths, even at my own expense. Christian, you are correct in that there have been many "buy the new thing, it's so much better". Much $$$$ later, we find that we've fallen for it again.
Other issue, why are there so few new parts developed for our sport? Why? Because it takes money, time and learned knowledge but very few respect the knowledge part anymore, but as soon as something that pushes forward comes out, its ripped off (I've got a cnc) and now the innovator is out, leaving our sport with only snake oil salesmen parts. It's a world of "just give me the answer now".
There are several pump making guys out there now. Skat Trak, those that buy the Skat stater, and those that copy the Skat stater. What's the real difference? Why are their pricing so different when they are all Skat's or Skat copies (poopty one's included). Pay cheap, get cheap and NO HELP,or cheap and not last. So no, you won't see any real pump performance difference when they are all basically the same. You will hear some guys talking about how "his pump is better" BS, IT"S A SKAT in a new housing. Torrent has developed a new pump, very intricate changes that add up to a real difference. Torrent has access to aspects of how pumps really work that the rest don't, or even understand, hence much more $$$ invested. I have watched and watched how all these boats react with what hull, rider, engine, and now pump. I can watch a sad performing package/engine/pump with a good rider and the reverse. Also, ask the pump seller questions about how to tune the pump to your package. You'll get a half azzed answer's. Brian will, and does know, and will help you. All the others are useless, but go ahead save the few $$ and spend so much time (seasons) and money trying to get it right.
The new Ninja Pro is the next step in pump development/evolution, and its just a matter of time before some scumbag copies it (to a degree or best they can), calls it their own and Brian looses all the money and time he put into it, and at that time I will be a pain in arse to them. If you want to know what is what, just go the the World Finals and see what people are willing to spend money on to get to that level. All the rest is just noise. Also, if you ride a stainless/aluminum pump in salt, your asking for trouble down the road. That is such a stupid idea. FULL DISCLOSURE--- Brian is one of my best friends too and it's a great thing that I don't have to lie about his pumps, that would be much too difficult a task to do all the time. Being honest takes so much less effort.
So:
1: What and how do you ride?
2: What are you going to put this in? Package: hull, engine, ect.
3: Budget:
That is where you start.

Well first of, there is being made more parts, hulls, engines and pumps now than ever before - dispite the sport is not at its highest.
You said it yourself with the "buy the newest things, is so much better"
Well Brian claims his pumps to be soo much better. how about he backed that up?
Hell if he can bench test his pumps against other brands (not computer simulation) and get 20-30% more effeciency - i will buy one
BUT the selling point is: look at who is riding it at WF and the pros - okai:

i would says Lee stones Pump (proberly XS with skat stator) is much better than Torrent, becasue he placed 1. in pro? is that a valid point?

I rode 2 skis last summer, close to identical, same tuner (very well respected, builder, tuner and rider)
One has a Torrent pro pump and the other a TJ pump. same engine, same exhaust, same ignition, same carbs.
Did the torrent feel any better - no not at all

 

[egbrig]

Christian, the Torrent Ninja Pro is what I am referring to. You and I have spoken a few times and you know I take a realistic perspective on things. Actually, Lee won, but that Bun boat decimated his, hence Lee went to Bun. Bun has pushed the package. Power Package = intake, short block, ignition, exhaust, pump. What I know is that when I witnessed Chris Anyzeski's launch his boat it was truly impressive. I know what that package looks like and how it runs and I witnessed what the pump had brought to the package, and wow! You are correct, I am saying "buy the newest thing" but this time I'm putting my neck out to support it. There is no money in it for me to do so, but it is what I want those with my builds going to WF to run, because I know it's worth it. And Christian, just like you I am have trouble convincing some of my riders to get that pump so I know its not personal. I'm just waiting to tell those guys "I TOLD YOU SO". I can't argue with how much it costs, I couldn't afford it right now, but if the best is what you need, then this is my suggestion.
Don't get the Torrent Ninja Pro, until after you ride your competitors boat. It's OK. I also know what salt water does to aluminum/ss pumps. Change My Mind.

 

[iQRTurbo]

Totally agree pumps take tuning and all. I also understand you are buying the support - no doubt, that’s super valuable. I’m just curious, assuming you tune the Skat perfectly then tune the Torrent (or other one piece) perfectly, will you see a substantial difference? If so, what kind of difference? Just more hookup? More thrust everywhere? More thrust on the low end? I’ll spend money on parts that are worth it but I’ve personally gotten to a point where I need to see real info before buying something (e.g.- everybody said MSD TL made more power than zeel - totally not true, everybody said swap your stator to a mag, but only made a small difference, etc.)

If you aren’t seeing major gains from MSD TL vs Zeel and mag pump vs oem your setup is so many miles off from being optimally tuned you have lots of work to do. And must be only doing one trick at a time. MSD and Mag pumps will outshine in combos all day long

 

[Jcary85]

If you aren’t seeing major gains from MSD TL vs Zeel and mag pump vs oem your setup is so many miles off from being optimally tuned you have lots of work to do. And must be only doing one trick at a time. MSD and Mag pumps will outshine in combos and day long

IDK man, I've done lots of tweaking on everything. The MSD switch didn't really make a difference and it makes sense why (not gonna hijack this thread with all that). The switch to mag pump made a small difference. I tried a few different pitches after swapping, played with setback etc and got it dialed pretty nice but, to me, it was a SMALL gain (even after tuning) for $1700 or whatever I paid for it. FWIW, I'm no expert and last year was my first year on an AM hull and first year flipping. I can now get 2 flips in a row - still learning - just didn't see the huge difference everyone was talking about with the mag....

P.S. - this thread has gotten a bit tense for me hahaha... might be time to:

 

[800750]

IDK man, I've done lots of tweaking on everything. The MSD switch didn't really make a difference and it makes sense why (not gonna hijack this thread with all that). The switch to mag pump made a small difference. I tried a few different pitches after swapping, played with setback etc and got it dialed pretty nice but, to me, it was a SMALL gain (even after tuning) for $1700 or whatever I paid for it. FWIW, I'm no expert and last year was my first year on an AM hull and first year flipping. I can now get 2 flips in a row - still learning - just didn't see the huge difference everyone was talking about with the mag....

P.S. - this thread has gotten a bit tense for me hahaha... might be time to:

It's winter/off season. Let's crank the intensity up to 11

 

[zeski25]

I just read this entire thread. Brian is right.
We are passionate riders and enthusiast at Torrent. The price is what it is. The amount of quality and precision that goes into these pumps is remarkable. These aren't built in your moms basement type products. I cannot start to tell you the amount of issues I've had with driveshafts running high horsepower engines. I've owned cheap mag pumps, middle of the road mag pumps, and pumps that are more than two months pay. I choose Torrent products over everything. I've tested the same style pump back to back with my Torrent Ninja and nothing comes close to it for my set up.

 

[zzylstra]

I just read this entire thread. Brian is right.
We are passionate riders and enthusiast at Torrent. The price is what it is. The amount of quality and precision that goes into these pumps is remarkable. These aren't built in your moms basement type products. I cannot start to tell you the amount of issues I've had with driveshafts running high horsepower engines. I've owned cheap mag pumps, middle of the road mag pumps, and pumps that are more than two months pay. I choose Torrent products over everything. I've tested the same style pump back to back with my Torrent Ninja and nothing comes close to it for my set up.

I can agree, although I do not use a Torrent pump and am guilty for using a knockoff titanium stator. I will say that the day I decided to trash my Skat driveshaft and take the plunge into the much more expensive (at the time) H20/torrent shaft, I had a piece of mind that It was one part I wouldnt have to retouch down the road. And I havent, 2016 is when I built my ski with their shaft. So If I can give any advice in this thread..... Torrent, Skat, TJ, Thrust, Copy, Bun, Oem.... do yourself the favor and make sure Torrent's shaft is in them

 

[zzylstra]

On top of that if it means anything to the OP. To solidify what Eric was saying... and me and Eric go way back After the fact service, I havent heard from Tyler since I bought my pump housing.. Did I need him? I dont think so... Am I complaining? absolutely not. But hindsight I tuned his pump coming from a tuned pump, That is not necessarily the case with all customers. Till this day I still go out of my way to ask customers who purchased our ignitions and ask how everything is going, and make sure they are happy. Hell, Brian came up to me at Finals and asked if everything was going good and how I am liking my pump. He didnt have to but he did... and my purchase was 4 years ago.