Other Question for paint experts on cure time and my turfing issues

[IS0LD0UT]

If you are not a paint expert or have experience with painting skis, please don't repond with an opinion.

....................

Had my ski painted a few weeks ago.

Fast forward to yesterday. I started turfing the ski...

When I bonded the turf to the ski and pulled up a bit to stretch some of the pearl and clear pulled off. The base coat and primer stayed on the ski. I had been using the razor and heat method of turfing.

This was my first fresh paint turf job. I have turfed skis before with no issues like this, but their paint was older.

I took a chunk of the layers that pealed off and applied heat from my gun to it. It became soft like plastic sheeting.

Details of the paint...

It was painted with a primer, HOK base, pearl and then clear. Flex additive was added.

It is cold up here, he had a heated garage but was only about 60 degrees most of the time. After that it sat inside my house for a few weeks at about 70 degrees.

It was not baked at any point.

Questions...

1. Does it sound like there was an adhesion problem between layers?
2. Are there special steps one should take when turfing a newly painted ski?
3. My main concern is that all the paint is going to peal later this year.
4. What the hell is going on.

Thanks for helping a paint newb out.

 

[gto0209]

I am wondering the same thing, I just had my blaster painted and want to know the best way to get the turf to adhere.

 

[jeastes1]

I am a painter and have had similar problems when using different brands of base coats on top of one another, As far as cure time you should have been fine,, if it was 70 degrees for a few weeks. I know that HOK isnt the most user friendly or durable, and the thicker the paintjob usually the weaker it is. Ive learned if you dont want to have peeling paint dont glue anything to painted surfaces, mask these areas off or sand the paint off before turfing. Im not sure that the rest will peel, it depends how easily pulls off, if normal masking tape pulls off paint then you def have a major problem.

 

[Matt_E]

I painted my ski with HOK primer, sealer, base, and clear last year. A couple of things here:
Did you follow the directions 100%?
I.e, did you use properly scuff the primer with the appropriate grit before applying sealer?
Did you scuff the sealer?
Did you scuff the base coat in between coats?
Did you scuff the finished base coat before applying clear?
Did you apply multiple coats if clear in the allotted time, or alternatively, did you scuff between coats?
Finally, HOK clear can take weeks to fully cure if it's cold out.
Mine was fully cured after an initial 24 hour 90 degree bake and another couple days at 70.

All of those things I mentioned can cause adhesion problems. Look at the HOK tech manual for details on every product.
As an aside, I never bother to paint areas that are going to get turfed. It's a waste of expensive paint and you need to rough it up with sand paper anyhow.

 

[powerhouseperformance]

This a fairly common problem when the clear doesnt cure out completely. I paint several skis a year where we turf around the rails and it glues to the fresh paint. If possible we let the ski cure the paint by sitting it out side in the sun for at least a couple of days within about a three week drying period. If thats not possible in winter months we heat the shop to 85 degrees for a few days. When all of the carriers in the clear havnt been fully released the contact cement will act like a paint stripper and soften it right up. A down and dirty test would be to try and put the edge of your fingernail into an unconspicuous spot in the paint...if you can dent it at all it hasnt hardened enough yet.

 

[IS0LD0UT]

I painted my ski with HOK primer, sealer, base, and clear last year. A couple of things here:
Did you follow the directions 100%?
I.e, did you use properly scuff the primer with the appropriate grit before applying sealer?
Did you scuff the sealer?
Did you scuff the base coat in between coats?
Did you scuff the finished base coat before applying clear?
Did you apply multiple coats if clear in the allotted time, or alternatively, did you scuff between coats?

I did not do the painting so I am not sure of the answers. He is an experienced painter with motorcyles. Skis were new to him.

Finally, HOK clear can take weeks to fully cure if it's cold out.
Mine was fully cured after an initial 24 hour 90 degree bake and another couple days at 70.

How do I tell its fully cured?

All of those things I mentioned can cause adhesion problems. Look at the HOK tech manual for details on every product.
As an aside, I never bother to paint areas that are going to get turfed. It's a waste of expensive paint and you need to rough it up with sand paper anyhow.

The area I was turfing was the rail. I scuffed up the paint good before applying, but how do you deal with the areas of the transition between turf and paint. There will have to be some overlap to get a good transition?

Have you ever had issues with using heat gun near fresh paint? That is the one I cannot figure out.

 

[Matt_E]

The most important thing is making sure the clear is cured. As mentioned above, if you can dent the clear with your finger nail, it's not cured.

 

[IS0LD0UT]

This a fairly common problem when the clear doesnt cure out completely. I paint several skis a year where we turf around the rails and it glues to the fresh paint. If possible we let the ski cure the paint by sitting it out side in the sun for at least a couple of days within about a three week drying period. If thats not possible in winter months we heat the shop to 85 degrees for a few days. When all of the carriers in the clear havnt been fully released the contact cement will act like a paint stripper and soften it right up. A down and dirty test would be to try and put the edge of your fingernail into an unconspicuous spot in the paint...if you can dent it at all it hasnt hardened enough yet.

That may be the issue. When I sanded the rails, they did have a little chemical/paint smell. Almost like what you are describing of carriers.

If the clear is cut with a razor, in the case of it being fully cured would the paint ever peal around it? If not than that is probably a indication that it was not fully cured as where it was cut pealed easily.

I am in MN, so the sun is a no-go. Should I apply a halogen lamp to the ski and see if I can get it to cure more? I have used that for epoxy resin before it will warm to about 100 degrees in the most direct spot.

Appreciate the help.

 

[Matt_E]

It will cure in colder temperatures, but it'll take a lot longer

 

[Mark44]

Contact cement will soften clear coat. Best to install turf on glass.

 

[Matt_E]

Properly cured clear should be impervious to contact cement, I would think? (i don't know)
I cleared my rails, then turfed them, and everything is still holding up fine.

 

[IS0LD0UT]

Thank for the responses. I am going to get some heat on it and give it some more time to cure and see if that changes things.

 

[JPCharmin]

Contact cement will soften clear coat. Best to install turf on glass.

agreed, i would sand the sh.t out of that clear coat and get down to the base before turfing

 

[Matt_E]

Come to think of it, I did sand the rails with 60 grit before applying cement.

 

[tipafew]

Contact cement will soften clear coat. Best to install turf on glass.

Right on! I always tape off my rails so they don't get painted and I still hit them with 60 grit after that. The clear sometimes has to cure for a long time otherwise it will react with the contact cement. Best off just to glue right to the gelcoat.

 

[powerhouseperformance]

If you can get some more heat on it, it would help. No matter what it will eventually cure out in time. I never bother to sand the paint before turfing. The contact cement sticks to the smooth surface with no problems. Like Matt said, cured clear should be impervious to contact cement. I've actually glued stuff down (pole pad on hood) taken them back off and used goof off to remove the residual cement with no detection that it was ever there. Moral of the story - give it as much time as you can before you need to turf it. Maybe the painter used slow acting hardener. I know there are three different choices for the same clear I use.

 

[Watty]

I know we use a different brand of paint here in oz, but the clear over base principals should be similar. I've never had a problem with contact adhesive softening the clear coat. Sure I scuff it up, but thats it. When I do a turf job for a customer, I never mask of the edges. I coat the area in adhesive, lay down the turf, and lean up the excess later on. I honestly don't think that is your problem.

Things that come to mind...

- air temp
- dodgy paint (have seen this numerous times)
- flex additive (incompatible, or too much)
- base coat prep (I personally like to apply clear while the base is still green for better adhesion)
- clear coat sure time (I didn't see anywhere that you responded to the fingernail test?)

 

[ntrsspray]

I was told to wait atleast 30 days to turf the rails and stuff after my painter painted. It's been 30 days + but I'm still nervous lol


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[IS0LD0UT]

- clear coat sure time (I didn't see anywhere that you responded to the fingernail test?)

I did the fingernail test last night. Pushed as hard as I could with my nail. It did not sink in however when I ran my nail across the spot at a 90 degree angle I could grab a tiny indentation.

Like everything jet ski related I wish I had more experienced people/shops closer.

I also put it in a room of my house with a heater last night and had it at 90 degrees surface temp for 12 hours. Going to do the same tonight.

 

[IS0LD0UT]

I was told to wait atleast 30 days to turf the rails and stuff after my painter painted. It's been 30 days + but I'm still nervous lol

Start with an inconspicuous area and do a test with cement and heat. I started with the rails, should have gone with the tray.

The good thing is I now have the first blemish out of the way. I no longer need to baby the hull in fear of a scratch.