Other Stupid question #374 (discuss)

[Wolf Child]

the turbo thread made mention of something I have wondered about for a long time.


where in the hell are the Fuel Injected jet skis? everything is fuel injected now. why not a ski? :reporter:


<discuss>

 

[jetpilot08]

MRD had a fuel injection setup. From what I understand it was a pain to setup and tune. Electronic fuel injection would be cool for fresh water but I'm not sure it would be so reliable in the salt water.

 

[WFO Speedracer]

The OEMS didn't want to sink that kind of money into what they deemed a small percentage of a shrinking market. Seadoo had some setups that would have worked off of sleds,E tec setups, but their halfassed entry into the stand upmarket failed miserably, the way the market is going another failure wouldn't be wise.Yamaha and Kawasaki rode out the carb versions of their skis as long as they could go then said F it. If its going to happen its going to take a small company with lots of initiative and drive to put something decent out on the market. I don't think the kind of connectors Seadoo was using would ever work in the standup in saltwater usage, I have seen enough wiring failures on sit downs. What we need is something rather simple like the Seadoo RFI setup, the Di stuff was way too complex to ever work in this market.

 

[Waternut]

Most things fuel injected are also 4 strokes...not all but most. IMO, simple is best. Total loss was bad enough to setup the first time. A well tuned carb runs just fine, is unaffected by salt spray, and can be maintained by someone who's never touched a carb before. Pretty much every fuel injection system is ridiculously complicated. Heck even boat and car carbs are far more complex than our ski's. I'll take a simple carb and a rough estimate on jetting and be happy in a couple hours.

 

[D-Nice]

x2 on that. im no auto mechanic by far but i can rebuild a dirtbike or jetski carb. my fuel injection acted up on my streetbike an i wouldnt even attempt to touch that bullshat.

Most things fuel injected are also 4 strokes...not all but most. IMO, simple is best. Total loss was bad enough to setup the first time. A well tuned carb runs just fine, is unaffected by salt spray, and can be maintained by someone who's never touched a carb before. Pretty much every fuel injection system is ridiculously complicated. Heck even boat and car carbs are far more complex than our ski's. I'll take a simple carb and a rough estimate on jetting and be happy in a couple hours.

 

[baxt3r]

It seems to me that fuel injection would make a stnadup too expensive to be worthwhile to the average buyer. $7500 is too much for a stock ski in my mind, and I would imagine the price of a new FI ski would be significantly higher . Plus everything else mentioned above.

 

[LeftysRule22]

Weather or not its on a retailed ski is irrelevant. It would be awesome to see an aftermarket company release one. Despite that it may be more complicated, we are talking about a performance upgrade. FI on a 4 stroke makes more power and more efficiently. With all the stuff people do to their skis these days, I would think just that would be enough for the guys building billet pv motors and crap. What I dont know is weather or not the gains on a 2 stroke are worth it, maybe not.

 

[kevbo]

Both EFI and mechanical fuel injection have come and gone. Both had some benefits over carburetors but not enough to justify their detractions. I think a carb with an overly rich pilot/popoff can respond better than any fuel injection at a fraction of the price. Thats all anyone here cares about.

 

[tom21]

who wants a computer($500-1000?), a $300 fuel pump, and $50 each injectors plus an assortment of sensors, more expensive plugs, and maybe even a standalone programmer to run it all and diagnose( which may or may not be available to the public)?

not me, first of all, when something goes wrong the system could just shut down and now you are dead in the water. its rare that a stock cdi fails. when you water ingest now you have throttle body issues and possibly stuck injectors. and worse still is the diagnostic side. maybe the manufacturer keeps a lid on his system and you have to go to a service shop to get it fixed. you are at the mercy of the maker and it can be expensive. and as we all know more electrical is not really a good thing on a ski that routinely sees salt water.

Really if you want to learn all about how ty that setup CAN BE. go buy a seadoo di or rfi, or a kawi 1100di or a polaris hell even a honda and when they run right its all good but when you have a problem man do I feel for you brother.

I dont see how a small savings in fuel and near perfect tune for the money is a plus when you weigh it against the downside of all that tech and what can go wrong.

I think the old mrd was probably as good as you will get to a "simple" fi setup. it was more mechanical than electrical so that eliminates one nightmare, I dont know how much it cost but even if it was comparable to carbs how much better was the fuel economy and power? if it wasnt that great then why make the effort? for the difference in price you could pay a tuner, have all the power and a simple setup still.

heh this from a crotchety old guy who thinks simple is better.

 

[LeftysRule22]

I agree, simple is better. It just seems to me that: A - MFI has been around since the 50's, B - We can make microchips with 4 billion transistors on the surface area of a penny, but we cant come up with a cost effective, reliable, MFI? Or for that matter, a fuel injected supercharged 4 stroke that weighs the same as a 2 stroke making comparable power? (OK, maybe thats a little optimistic, lol)

I get it, no demand - no product. That's the story with this sport, maybe someone should give that russian billionaire a call?

 

[Big Kahuna]

If you knew what you were doing the MRD's worked pretty well. There were some guys from Illinois (SP!) years ago that were racing that only ran the MRD's. Their ski's were typically in the front of the pack.

 

[WFO Speedracer]

If you knew what you were doing the MRD's worked pretty well. There were some guys from Illinois (SP!) years ago that were racing that only ran the MRD's. Their ski's were typically in the front of the pack.

A lot of people in various sports have made their own systems using the Microsquirt technology, not nearly as complex as the OEM systems, its doable if you want to do it.

http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/....html?osCsid=0d9bd01aed155af9e06300d8b5d3027f

 

[Schmidty721]

I have a friend who is building an old Yami RZ 350 twin 2-stoke sportbike and he contacted High Gain tuning in regards to FI.
I think they quoted him somehwere around $1300.

http://www.highgaintuning.com/

I've tossed around the idea of trying to piece together an EFI system adapting what our company uses on Fuel Injected V-Twin engines to a ski engine just for giggles... maybe this winter if I don't do another build.

 

[QJS]

This is something that our Flame ignition will be able to do in the future if we decide to go down that road but I'm not sure the market is there to warrant the r&d......Interesting possibility though.
Chris.

 

[2010brandingo]

If you knew what you were doing the MRD's worked pretty well. There were some guys from Illinois (SP!) years ago that were racing that only ran the MRD's. Their ski's were typically in the front of the pack.

X2. I run MRD on my kawi and absolutely love it! My set-up has been passed around our group since the mid 90's and we have had no problems with it. In the late 90's my buddy and I were running pretty much the same set-up, 750's with 46's... his ported mine not. He could pull me here and there but they were pretty close. He slapped the MRD on and it was night and day. Easily pullin me by at least 5-7 mph and the throttle response was incredible! Its been over 10 Years and im still running the same MRD on my 850 kawi and have no desire to even try carbs on it...
Now keep in mind, this is just a lake racer/freeride boat but its a freakin terror! I have my sj for the flatwater and have an MRD set-up for a yami sitting in the shop collecting dust... been thinking about putting it on the 8mil lamey and seeing what she's like!!!

 

[Waternut]

I agree, simple is better. It just seems to me that: A - MFI has been around since the 50's, B - We can make microchips with 4 billion transistors on the surface area of a penny, but we cant come up with a cost effective, reliable, MFI? Or for that matter, a fuel injected supercharged 4 stroke that weighs the same as a 2 stroke making comparable power? (OK, maybe thats a little optimistic, lol)

I get it, no demand - no product. That's the story with this sport, maybe someone should give that russian billionaire a call?

There's no harm in being ambitious and I don't want to poo on the parade but there are some major considerations here that I think are being missed. I'll try to address them in order. The tech guys can put 4 billion transistors on something the size of a penny because they know if they spend a few million dollars more in research and development to make the processor faster, they will sell millions of products in a year or two and can add pennies on the dollar to recoup their costs. If you sold a FI system for a standup jetski for $1000 each (very reasonable IMO), I'd be impressed if 100 systems got sold over 5 years.

Trying to compare power to weight ratio of a 4 stroke to a 2 stroke is kind of like comparing a Kia Rio to a Ferrari. Both have the same basic function but that's where the similarities end.

One other thing I'd like to point out is... I ran dual 44's on my ski last year. I then switched to dual 44 GRS carbs and the difference was literally eye opening. Brought a smile to my face every time I pulled the throttle for weeks. My point is not all carbs are created equal and I bet there is a better option out there for most of us but we aren't all willing to spend money to experiment.

 

[LeftysRule22]

The tech guys can put 4 billion transistors on something the size of a penny because they know if they spend a few million dollars more in research and development to make the processor faster, they will sell millions of products in a year or two and can add pennies on the dollar to recoup their costs.

I get it, no demand - no product.

Its all a pipe-dream, but the technology is there. It could ​be done.

 

[Wolf Child]

sounds like the only thing stopping it from happening is the "tuners" like you guys that are resistant to change. and since the stand up maket is all but dead in the major manufacturers eyes, there is no need to develop/apply it.

 

[tom21]

its not from being resistant to change its from being resistant to pain. im sure if there were a setup that was reasonably priced and would last beyond a year or two it would catch on and sell.

make a poll, if you could buy a new set of the best brand x carbs or a proven and simple FI setup would you go FI?

if it was proven to work and last and was nearly the same price, given the choice I think people would opt for perfect tuning.
IF/when that setup is available we will see.

we all want the best bang for our buck, sure you could take the FI off yours moms honda accord and make it work for a ton of money, but it wouldnt last long and would be expensive to do. so unless you are a mule headed millionaire you will probably opt for the less expensive carb option right? well sorry, YOU(wolfchild) would set it on fire. but most people will go with what "works". make an FI setup that "works" and I'll buy it. go! do it now! why are you still here?!

 

[jetpilot08]

What about nitrous? Didn't some one do that to their ski on the forum?