Superjet dies/seizure at the end of each run

Hello,

Yamaha superjet 2015
Completely stock
oil is 40:1
High octane low Ethanol fuel (euro98 here in the netherlands)


i encountered this problem for 4 or 5 times by now. Let me explain it:
Jetski runs great overall, no problem if i run it hard, it has full power and runs like it should
At the end of the day the jetski suddenly dies, like the stop button is pressed. It wont start after, but will once in a while fire, so this can sort of rule out ignition problems (it will crank, but not start)
After an hour everything is fine again.


Carbs are rebuild because i expected a lean seizure. Jets are in the amount of turns they should be, and i even opened up the high speed jet 1/4 further.
Checked with the endoscope, cant really see scratches or something on the cil. walls. The top of the piston is overall black with some chips missing around the ports.

Its almost like it has a auto-filling health bar that fills when i let it sit after the stall and drains when i run it after the stall.
Tested compression and both are the same (my tester is not very accurate, it gives around 110 psi on both cilinders)

WHAT OH WHAT CAUSES MY JETSKI TO STOP and behave like this.
 
It doesnt really look like is related to the fuel level. Yesterday it happened (i think by coincedence) at the moment i changed from on to reserve. But i will check the check valve for sure. The previous time it happened the tank was only 1/2 empty..

The problem doesnt looks to appear when the engine is hot. I can run it on the track for a long time without it happening, and i think that that is the time when the engine is getting the hottest.

I will check on the air leaks, but cant do a leakdown test here. I will try to find a leakdown tester
 

Big Kahuna

Administrator
Location
Tuscaloosa, AL
It doesnt really look like is related to the fuel level. Yesterday it happened (i think by coincedence) at the moment i changed from on to reserve. But i will check the check valve for sure. The previous time it happened the tank was only 1/2 empty..

The problem doesnt looks to appear when the engine is hot. I can run it on the track for a long time without it happening, and i think that that is the time when the engine is getting the hottest.

I will check on the air leaks, but cant do a leakdown test here. I will try to find a leakdown tester
Just because you run the ski hard for a few minutes does not mean the Coil on the stator is getting fully heated. What JC is meaning that over time the Coil could be heating up enough to start breaking down. This is not related to heat from the cylinders, this is overall heat built up which may take time to generate. You mentioned it happened when you swapped to reserve. Try running the ski on reserve from a full tank. Are you getting fuel. Have had issues with reserve/on valves in past. Did you pull the plugs and look for spark? As far as compression goes, that has nothing to do with your spark. As long as both cylinders are close your ski will run.
 
Didnt cleaned the carb myself, but im thinking of doing it myself again because it didnt get taken apart, just thrown into the ultrasound cleaner...
Problem happened to me yesterday again:

Before running i opened up the front high speed jet 1/4 more, because if was suspecting that this cilinder was running lean.
Lovely evening with running the jetski hard, then at some point, completely died. Wouldnt start again in the water. Would start on the shore (no load), and thus had spark.

Checked compression later in the evening and still same results. Also checked inside the engine with the camera and i noticed something strange. The last time i checked, both pistons where almost completely black with chips missing around the ports, but now the rear cilinder was almost clean, with some kind of black spots at the center of the piston. Front piston was still black.
I will try to take a picture.
 

E350

Site Supporter
Location
Sacramento Delta
"Seizure" means that the engine won't turn over, won't crank. Either with the plugs in the engine or not. You might think that the starter is bad, but instead the resistance of the piston rings against the cylinder is so high that the engine will not rotate. If you try to rotate the engine by hand at the coupler, it will not rotate. Since your engine still rotates, so you don't have a "Seizure." Seizure results in a "no crank/no start" condition.

Instead you have a "crank/no start" condition.

Also, my personal experience with a clogged cylindrical screen in the carb was that the ski eventually would not start at all. Because it was fuel starved. But I had spark. Your ski starts, it just has an intermittent problem. Once clogged, your ski will not have an intermittent problem. It will have a constant problem.

It sure sounds like an electrical problem to me. I have this spark plug tester which is easy to use. I would ski with it and then when your ski won't start, put it on and see if you have spark and report back.


What SteveC says below is a very likely problem. I have replaced the stock CDI's on both our 701's due to failure of the old oem CDI's. But save your money and check for spark when you are having the problem first.
 
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Location
West MI
I have a friend who fought some ghost of a problem a lot like this for a long time. Rebuilt carbs, frequent plugs, new coil, I think a new stator... can't remember for sure on that one. Anyway, the final change that made it all go back to normal was swapping the CDI out.
 
Im rebuilding the carbs right now.
Assembling then now. Look at the space between the needle and the thingy that lifts the needle up. Is that ok?
 

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Vumad

Super Hero, with a cape!
Location
St. Pete, FL
I have a friend who fought some ghost of a problem a lot like this for a long time. Rebuilt carbs, frequent plugs, new coil, I think a new stator... can't remember for sure on that one. Anyway, the final change that made it all go back to normal was swapping the CDI out.

I also had strange problems from my CDI. I had a MSD that was used. I had strange behavior on my ski too. I put the stock ignition back in and the problem was resolved. CDi can make very weird things happen.

Yesterday it happened (i think by coincedence) at the moment i changed from on to reserve.

You can't just change from on to reserve and keep going nuts. The reserve line is often dry or has air in it. When switching from on to reserve, you need to stay in the lower RPM until the fuel line is fully primed and air free. When you start your day, before you ride at all, warm the ski up on reserve, then switch to on and stay lower in the RPM until you know your On line is fully primed, then enjoy. You should never be on the track racing or taking a high speed cruise and swap over to reserve at high RPM. If you have a good reason to do this, start the day as I said before, or you risk a lean seizure as high RPM with dry fuel lines and risky business.

Didnt cleaned the carb myself, but im thinking of doing it myself again because it didnt get taken apart, just thrown into the ultrasound cleaner...

Whoever did that job didn't do it right. That wont get a internal fuel filter clean. A friend had a GP800 that was 80% clogged in one and 100% clogged in the other. That requires disassbly.

Get a popoff tester. Take the jet side apart and the fuel pump side apart. Clean both with carb cleaner. Don't forget the little fuel basket on the pump side. Re-assemble and use a pop-off tester to both check that your needle is working right (Pop-off test - affects mostly low end performance) and your fuel pump isn't leaking (pressure test - mostly high end performance).

PS: I'm not suggesting this is a carb problem. Sitting rarely fixes carb problems.

Before running i opened up the front high speed jet 1/4 more, because if was suspecting that this cilinder was running lean.
Lovely evening with running the jetski hard, then at some point, completely died. Wouldnt start again in the water. Would start on the shore (no load), and thus had spark.

Checked compression later in the evening and still same results. Also checked inside the engine with the camera and i noticed something strange. The last time i checked, both pistons where almost completely black with chips missing around the ports, but now the rear cilinder was almost clean, with some kind of black spots at the center of the piston. Front piston was still black.
I will try to take a picture.

Don't suspect the cylinder is running lean. Know it is or don't mess with it. The most common way to know this is by doing plug checks. There are lots of posts here on the X about the right way to test this. You can also be sure by checking piston wash, something I haven't ever messed with, but piston wash is what you are alluding too with the differences in the carbon build up on your two pistons. Look up and read some threads using the key words plug tests and piston wash. I have found it easiest to search using googing and x-h2o.com "piston wash" rather than the forums search feature, but these days the search is working a lot better than it used to.

It's unlikely you are having seizures. You'd see scoring on the cylinder walls and lost compression or heat damage on the exhaust side of the piston. Not to say it's impossible, but it is unlikely.

At the end of the day the jetski suddenly dies, like the stop button is pressed. It wont start after, but will once in a while fire, so this can sort of rule out ignition problems (it will crank, but not start)
After an hour everything is fine again.

No, you can not rule out an ignition problem like this. Not at all. The starter and the ignition are two separate systems that work together but are not dependent on each other. One working does not prove the other works. Yes they are connected, such as you can't crank the starter without the lanyard on because of how a yamaha is wired, but that's not how a kawasaki works. A kawasaki does not separate the lanyard, so a kawi will kill the spark and let you crank it, which is exactly the symptom you are describing. You can't make this mistake on a yamaha because of how the lanyard is wired, but the cranking does not mean you have spark.

You need to test that you have spark. The proper and safe way to do this is to use an in-line spark tester tool. You don't need one as most of us simply arc the spark plug off the cylinder head bolt to make sure we have spark. I can't say I recommend this because because if you have any sort of fuel or exhaust leak and start sparking off outside the motor you can cause a combustion (long story, but I once caused an explosion doing something similar), but yes, I myself do this, and no, I don't have the inline tool.

You can't rule out your ignition as the problem until you have confirmed you do have spark. It sounds like you haven't. Stator, coil and CDI failures often start as intermittent electrical problems that come and go often related to heat. As BK said, heat in the coil and heat in the cylinder are not related.

BTW, having spark does not rule out a CDI/Coil/stator problem. My MSD failure occurred at higher RPM. I didn't have starting issues. However since yours is not starting you can definitely check spark to know if you have an electrical problem (just know it doesn't completely rule out one). Unfortunately they only way to test a stator/coil/cdi is often to swap them out and test again.

I am not recommending this exact item, it's just the 1st one that popped up, but if you want to order something from amazon, click the link so X-H2O.com gets a commission. Can buy anyone you want while you are there. However, they do sell these at any autoparts store, so you can just go pick one up

Im rebuilding the carbs right now.
Assembling then now. Look at the space between the needle and the thingy that lifts the needle up. Is that ok?

It's very unlikely your problem and yes it looks fine. Only replace carb parts with genuine mikuni parts, (almost) never should you bend that arm as it has to work with the diaphragm, there are some good videos on youtube about it. Familiarize yourself with popoff testing and leak testing. Both are applicable to any ski you will own, regardless of how it is tuned, because those two tests are simply to ensure the carb parts are functioning correctly before you waste time trying to tune out a leak.
 
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Okay,
Those 2 measurements are new to me, but i indeed would like to learn them. I will order a couple of testers. But i have a question:
I understand what the leakdown test does.
But what does a popoff tester do? I measures the popoff pressure, but what exactly is "popoff pressure"?, and what value should it be for stock carbs?
 

E350

Site Supporter
Location
Sacramento Delta
KP, I have never used a Pop Off tester but will be buying one shortly. See my thread:


I will likely just buy the Mikuni one.

But I speculate that Pop Off is this:

Pop Off is the thing in our jet ski carburetors which replaces the float in our lawn mower, rototiller, snow blower and other power equipment carburetors.

When the float goes down, the inlet needle goes down and lets more gas into the carburetor body. When the float rises, it pushes the inlet needle into its seat and stops gas from entering the carb body.

In our jet ski carburetors, when the pressure on the other side of the diaphragm goes up, the spring "Pop's Off" retracting the gas inlet needle from its seat allowing more gas into the carburetor body. When the pressure on the other side of the diaphragm goes down, the spring pushes the inlet needle into its seat and stops gas from entering into the carb body.

A traditional carburetor float would be all over the place jumping up and down as we ride in rough water.

So the pop off thing was invented.

Apparently Pop Off pressure is critical to idle/slow rpm performance.

My guess is if your ski idled ok, then Pop Off pressure is not the cause of your problem.
 
You can't just change from on to reserve and keep going nuts.

Yes offcourse,i understand. What i meant is that after i changed it to Reserve, a minute or 5 later is stopped, This happened 3/5 times. The other times the tank was way over 1/2 full. I never change from on to reserve while riding hard. Always at low rpm indeed.

Don't suspect the cylinder is running lean. Know it is or don't mess with it. The most common way to know this is by doing plug checks
I agree, but i am too affraid the cylinder IS running lean and that i mess up the engine while trying to locate the problem, thats why i opened up the jets a little bit. I indeed checked plugs the first time it happened. Didnt look to bad, front plug was a little bit less black then the rear. Rear has a little bit more carbon build up (i put in new ones every year). Both looked okay (see attachment)

No, you can not rule out an ignition problem like this. Not at all. The starter and the ignition are two separate systems that work together but are not dependent on each other.
i understand. What i meant is, that the engine wants to start, but doesnt. WIth this i mean that it will fire once in a while during cranking after a seizure , but doesnt continue to fire. and stalls again . After a period of cooling down, it fires a little bit longer , but then dies again.
But, yesterday it happened again, and was towed to the shore and immediatly tested for spark (this was around 15 min after the seizure). Also, out of the water (without load from the water) the jetski will start and run solid at idle.

Whoever did that job didn't do it right. That wont get a internal fuel filter clean. A friend had a GP800 that was 80% clogged in one and 100% clogged in the othe
The filter is just in the fuel pump right? Or are they in the carb also? Couldt find them in the carb (this is probably a dumb question)

I attached some photos of the plugs (taken end of previous season, september 2020) and a couple of photos of the cilinders and piston via my endoscope. Hope you can see everything on there :D Note that the color of the rear cylinderis very different then the front cilinder. At this point i dont know which color it should be anymore. Also the chips at the ports in cylinder 1 are color brown. Piston number 1 is almost completely black.
 

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"Seizure" means that the engine won't turn over, won't crank. Either with the plugs in the engine or not. You might think that the starter is bad, but instead the resistance of the piston rings against the cylinder is so high that the engine will not rotate. If you try to rotate the engine by hand at the coupler, it will not rotate. Since your engine still rotates, so you don't have a "Seizure." Seizure results in a "no crank/no start" condition.
Thats i exactly what i thougt first when i heard the word seizure. The first time it happened i thought, HOLY poop THE ENGINE SEIZED, and then i thought, lets check if the engine is seized by trying to crank it, and it turned over. But then after doing some research people where saying that it lean seized. So im not sure if the engine should be completely locked up after a (lean) seizure. At this point i believe that an engine could seize, but can still crank. But thats for another person to confirm. Also, if it really seized, i thought the compression should be a lot worse.
 

E350

Site Supporter
Location
Sacramento Delta
Filter is Item 9 in attached pdf. Be gentle with it. Don't use compressed air. Use carb cleaner.
 

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E350

Site Supporter
Location
Sacramento Delta
Here is a photo of mine before and after, in post #10:

 

Vumad

Super Hero, with a cape!
Location
St. Pete, FL
Okay,
Those 2 measurements are new to me, but i indeed would like to learn them. I will order a couple of testers. But i have a question:
I understand what the leakdown test does.
But what does a popoff tester do? I measures the popoff pressure, but what exactly is "popoff pressure"?, and what value should it be for stock carbs?

When you leak test the carb, you are ensuring the fuel pump is not leaking. The carb should be able to hold 5-10 PSI for 10-15 minutes when you add pressure to the carb with the return and etc blocked. If it doesn't hold pressure, then your gaskets or needle is bad or you have too much corrosion or damage to the gasket/o-ring surfaces. Often you can get a false fail from leaking around the fuel lines. Add reusable zip ties to your carb testing kit.

Popoff is the pressure at which your needle lets fuel out. Popoff should be crisp and at a predicable pressure. The needle should do nothing until it pops like a geyser letting out most of the accumulated pressure. Bubbling from the needle before the popoff or a weak, or sputter popoff means your needle is bad, corrosion, etc.

You use the same gauge to leak test the carb that you use to test the popoff. It's a single tool for both jobs and costs about $50.

Specs for stock carbs are listed in a number of places on this forum and in the Superjet manual. It's in the area of 50PSI but I don't know the number exactly off hand.

KP, I have never used a Pop Off tester but will be buying one shortly. See my thread:


I will likely just buy the Mikuni one.

But I speculate that Pop Off is this:

Pop Off is the thing in our jet ski carburetors which replaces the float in our lawn mower, rototiller, snow blower and other power equipment carburetors.

When the float goes down, the inlet needle goes down and lets more gas into the carburetor body. When the float rises, it pushes the inlet needle into its seat and stops gas from entering the carb body.

In our jet ski carburetors, when the pressure on the other side of the diaphragm goes up, the spring "Pop's Off" retracting the gas inlet needle from its seat allowing more gas into the carburetor body. When the pressure on the other side of the diaphragm goes down, the spring pushes the inlet needle into its seat and stops gas from entering into the carb body.

A traditional carburetor float would be all over the place jumping up and down as we ride in rough water.

So the pop off thing was invented.

Apparently Pop Off pressure is critical to idle/slow rpm performance.

My guess is if your ski idled ok, then Pop Off pressure is not the cause of your problem.

Buy the Genuine mikuni one. If you don't know what you need, tell @JetManiac you need the tools to properly rebuild and test a carb. That's what I did. He will help you get what you need. I also recommend the allen head screw kit, though you can get them yourself from anywhere that you like that sells stainless hardware (Ace, etc), JM sells them as a kit so it's worth the extra buck or w/e to just add it to your order. It's much easier to get the bodies tight and no more stripping when opening it up later.

Ah yes i didnt oped up the fuel pump yet because i do not have a rebuild kit yet.

Im sorry for all the seperate replies from me. I will try to clean it up

You don't need a rebuild kit just because you open the carb. I have taken apart my carbs a lot and not replaced anything. As a matter of fact, I put brand new SBT rebuild kits in my carbs and couldn't get them sealed enough to pass a leak test and the popoff was poop. I put my 8 year old OEM parts back in and it passed with no problem. I don't know if SBT has fixed their issue, but their o-rings were thinner than genuine mikuni. WSM didn't even stamp the sizes on their jets which is a joke. I only buy genuine mikuni parts and you should too.

In any case, you don't need to replace anything in the carb if the carb is clean and it passes the 2 tests. Sure, if ordering a popoff tester it's nice to have replacement parts on hand, but if you clean the carb and it tests fine with the parts you have, there's no reason to actually replace anything.
 
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