TNT triple yamaha pipe

davidescu_radu

sea riders
Thank's for all info!
What is the max bottom end/hp you can extract from a stock 62t 780cc(85-86 mm bore)?
And will this be enough in a right carbon aftermarket hull - for freeride?
Because in this range of engines cc's are 90% of stand up raiders all over the world - so we are your potential clients! (I am from Romania - where this sport is minimum with 10 years back compared to us or france)

This is the package you should put together - let's say as a kit(not deparate parts) - and you will have a lot of clients!(my opinion)
 
Some things that jump out at me when I read bottom end/hp and 62T.

When it comes to Blasters and Superjets, the OEM cylinder is 61X with a 81mm bore.

There is a 62T cylinder with a 81mm bore too, however this was standard in couches. Then there is the 64X cylinder, found on 760's with an 84mm bore.

The last one, the 760 cylinder has 62T stamped on the cylinder. So it causes a bit of confusion. All the 760 cylinders I have seen have two extra gussets on the intake side. The part no for the cylinder starts with 64X.

So, davidescu_radu, the reason I bring this up is that your have asked what is the max bottom end/hp you can get from a 62T 780cc (85-86mm bore). The 61X has port timing to achieve more bottom end power than a 62T or 64X. When you bore a 61X to 84mm the bottom of the sleeve, the skirt part that fits into the crankcase gets pretty thin. And I think 84.5mm is the absolute max you can bore a 61X OEM cylinders to. So to keep the port timing of a 61X and use 85 or 86mm pistons, you can buy a larger cylinder sleeve to replace the stock one.

When you resleeve a 61X the cylinder requires boring to get the sleeve in. Then the cylinders need sizing to the pistons. So some folks take a cheaper path and buy a used 64X cylinder, that at 1mm oversize is 85mm. But the exhaust ports are higher up the sleeve than the 61X. Thats why people say a 61X hits harder down low than a 64X.

This then leads to Wax's point about the 62T centres. When you put bigger sleeves in you start to descrease the transfer port volume as you can't move the position of sleeves relative to each other and the crank to try to preserve the transfer volume.

Then you have Tim's observation that max horsepower cannot be achieved with a B-pipe. The B-pipe uses water to change the temperature of gases in the pipe, which changes the speed of sound moving through the gases. The point of this is to send a sound wave back at the exhaust port when the new fuel air mix is being introduced through the transfer ports but the exhaust port is open. Otherwise the new charge flows out the exhaust port.

So, do you want max hp or max bottom end?

Are you free riding or racing?

This affects the way you should configure your engine.

I think it was on the other TNT thread that Tim pointed out 2 stroke 500cc bikes produced 200hp in Grand Prix. And the major difference between them and pwc engines is the exhaust. So if you start chasing max hp, you really need to look at the exhaust.

Then there is this thread, about the yamaha triples with a 3-1 header and single expansion chamber. Easy to tune a pipe when there is one per cylinder (easy for an experienced engine tuner, of which I am not). Hence the power a triple piper can produce. When tuning a pipe for three cylinders how do you time that exhaust signal to work for all three cylinders? I don't know. At the limit of my knowledge.

Then Big Kahuna points out some people should be listened to. Others who were on the forum should have been listed to as well but have left because they got sick of arguing with people who told them they didn't know what they were talking about.

Then there is only so much you can get from a forum. I know an engine builder that can build crazy power from a 65U for putting into Balsters and Superjets. He won't give away 20 years of engine building experience on a forum. He always keeps a little up his sleeve. The info I put at the top of this thread is easily obtained from google and forums etc. When I talk with my engine tuner mate, the more I shut up and listen, the more he shares and the more I learn.

So enough waffling from me.

If anything a have written above is wrong, Im happy to be corrected.
 

tntsuperjet

Tntperformance-engineering.com
Location
Georgetown ca
I am really confused with all these comments from free ride guys.
They are stuck on this low end or hit.
I can make this some what as clear as mud.
Bottom end, aka low end , mid and the old mighty top end.
Your average free ride boat revs 7700. The pump loads the motor hard at 4,000.
The ski will not even get on a plane under 4800.
So if your over 4500 rpm to get on plane how the hell would any low end help you do a thing low is 1800-3000
Mide 3000-5000 top end is 5000+
So if your looking for a really hard hitting boat to say do mad high back flip.
Your looking wrong place.
You need clean carburation down low( vertually no one has) real strong mid range with hard follow through to peak rev. He who accelerates the quickest to 35mph will flip the highest.
Most the free ride boats I have ridden punch hard long enough to snap my arms straight then there pretty much done pulling hard. That not going to get you very high.
 
Difference between free ride and freestyle. Freeride typically means surf. Most surf guys want a lot of low end hit so they can limp up to a wave and hit the throttle to do their tricks. They don't want to 'get a run at it'. Freestyle is a different animal. Those guys need that tough mid to top so they can do back to back tricks, combos, etc.

Like wax said already, a lot don't know the difference between low end hit and throttle response. Case in point, a lot will tell you the 61x cylinder is better for low end. But, the 62t cylinder is the preferred choice for spec racing..... where the first 35 yards is everything - ie holeshot/bottom end, lol.

SM
 
Well I have sold three or 4 pipes to x members.


I like the x it's great way to get interest going but not a lot of the members do business with us.
Also many of the members do not know that TNT was one of te first Yamaha performance shops in watercraft or what we do.
Honestly, I don't believe most of know what services you provide, or are available to us. This is true with many engine porters/ builders, many of their services are known by word of mouth and if you don't have many customers in the first place, it may be hard for people, such as myself, to find your services on this site. It may be in your best interest to possibly create a thread, listing your services for what model cylinders, cases, and whatever else and possibly give a price range, so members may know some information to contact you with.

I've been looking for some porting services on my 61x cylinder, and i maybe sending it in your direction.. if some money comes along.

Good luck on triple pipe and thanks for posting some enlightening knowledge on the mechanics of two strokes and pipe design, its been keeping me awake during my school classes!
 
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High Speed Industries

Your one stop shop for quality parts @highspeedind
Wax, you are on the right path, it's not going to e easy to get a watercraft motor to the 200hp mark.
But in my personal attempts I am not going over 860cc for the very reason you mentioned. Why try to feed a 88mm bore with small transfer ports. Bigger the bore gets smaller the transfer tunnels get.
I also believe the exhaust port shape is very wrong on most the billet cyl. I have had 18hp gains on a 900 I welded up the exhaust changed the shape.
I am going to do some work on a tpe cyl with 84.5 mm bore and 8mm stroker and i will post the results.
I will also post a actual dyno run graph as well. I do this because it's my stuff and if it gets negative feed back it's not bashing on anyone else trying to do this sport good.
My approach maybe different then others. I want more efficient eng not the biggest eng on the market.
I will not build a 62t based motor bigger then 880cc regardless of the customers request. Will turn that work away for many other who do build solid 900+ CC engines.
There are some very good engine builders still playing with watercraft engines but like most of us we are limited in what we can produce if we want to turn even the smallest of profits.
But watercraft biggest nemisis is pipe design and exhaust design. No other two stroke uses the exhaust manifold designs that watercraft engines do, am watercraft make the lowest hp to CC of most 2stroke race engines.
Why??
Example. Moto GP was in the 200 HP range in late 80's with 500cc
That technology is quite easy to obtain today with most the great two stroke GP guys floating around no longer working for top secret factory teams.
Why is it not finding it's way into watercraft in past 20yrs ??
Master blast. Thank you for comments.

For those who don't know me, I am an engine guy that got tired of building disappointing numbers in my watercraft engines so I decided to make my own pipe to give me an edge over competition. But I learned over the yrs it doesn't matter how much faster your boat is then your competitors you can't win of you can't stay on it.
In 94 jammer rode one of my engines at world finals and after a yr of bad luck he finished back on top with a boat that was 5mph slower then I floundered on all yr on tour. His boat was carb orated mine where EFI.

Do you need an apprentice? I would love to learn porting, pipe design, tuning ect.
 

DAG

Yes, my balls tickled from that landing
Location
Charlotte, NC
Nah your close on it. I believe a lot of people get confused between low down power and throttle response.


Care to elaborate on the differences?


I know this is dumbing it down a good bit but is the basic principle as simple as saying "throttle response" = timing curve maxing around 2200RPM flat lining across and pump is tuned to be most efficient in the pre 4500 RPM range where as "low down power" has more to do with timing the return wave to come on post 5000 RPM and the pump slips in the low RPM range?
 
What a great thread, lots of good fresh information. What's your view on the newer 66e based 1200's, have you dyno'd any of those and how do they compare to the 62T platform? Are the transfers bigger on those due to the wider stance of the cylinders and crank rods?
 

waxhead

wannabe backflipper
Location
gold coast
What a great thread, lots of good fresh information. What's your view on the newer 66e based 1200's, have you dyno'd any of those and how do they compare to the 62T platform? Are the transfers bigger on those due to the wider stance of the cylinders and crank rods?
The transfers on them are a lot better. They have a decent loop in them which stops the gases having to do massive direction change.
A really good cylinder will have an increasing curve like a snail shell. This means as the gases speed up they have less of an arc to negotiate. There just isn't room in these engines to do that
 

waxhead

wannabe backflipper
Location
gold coast
Care to elaborate on the differences?


I know this is dumbing it down a good bit but is the basic principle as simple as saying "throttle response" = timing curve maxing around 2200RPM flat lining across and pump is tuned to be most efficient in the pre 4500 RPM range where as "low down power" has more to do with timing the return wave to come on post 5000 RPM and the pump slips in the low RPM range?
38s on a limited b-pipe with high compression. Great throttle response.
Big carbs , dry pipe big power
 

DAG

Yes, my balls tickled from that landing
Location
Charlotte, NC
lol, figured you were comparing similar motor setups with your statement just a difference on how they are tuned....



So what you are now saying..
701 setup = throttleresponse
1200 setup = big power

gee, who woulda guessed
 

waxhead

wannabe backflipper
Location
gold coast
lol, figured you were comparing similar motor setups with your statement just a difference on how they are tuned....



So what you are now saying..
701 setup = throttleresponse
1200 setup = big power

gee, who woulda guessed
Did I mention capacity somewhere. I'm not sure where I did that
 
Care to elaborate on the differences?
?

"HIT" - pump slipping in combination with rpm building until it all grabs at once and tries to rip ur arms off. can be achieved many ways. like gearing a car for more acceleration. with little hp u can get har "hit" with prop an pump and pipe setup.

to me thats not what im looking for i hate it. especially when the motors built for hit IE: XSCREAM have horrible low end and bog if run too low on throttle. so far very few big motors i have run have smooth power. big power for me is a motor like Luke's PHP that has a smooth linear throttle. at 10% throttle it rides at it and is linear from 10-100 same throughout the powerband. but this is just my opinion and what i like. a motor that runs like crap off idle is a poorly balanced engine in my eyes. and "Hit" i guess i can only relate to the explinations and how i have felt it is how fast can i get thrust at high rpm. not how much power is there r how smooth it is. its a response term not a power term.

does any of that make sense?
 
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There's a whole theory on what you have to do to 760 to make it hit. Pulling out the sleeve and decking bottom of the cylinder etc.

I was talking with a mate who has a stock Blaster 2 about this and he looks strangely at me as says take that B2 for a ride and then tell me it is all top end.

Well, obviously the B2 pulled away from the bottom with no drama.

Then my mate says, stock 760, stock 64X electrics...works fine.

So if you search 64X electrics you will find a lot of people advise binning them and running 61x/62t CDI.

Now I am starting to wonder if the cheapest big bore option for a superjet or AM surf boat is just a 760 with its 44's and electrics. Bump up the compression a bit.

And then.....the pipe.

What pipe would you run in that set up?
 

Quinc

Buy a Superjet
Location
California
Now I am starting to wonder if the cheapest big bore option for a superjet or AM surf boat is just a 760 with its 44's and electrics. Bump up the compression a bit.

And then.....the pipe.

What pipe would you run in that set up?

@Nuklear6 has a thread or a post on this that goes into some detail.
 
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