weisco piston break second opinion (photo)

specs
sj
yamaha weisco 84.5 mm pistons , convex top
62t cylinder ported (to much for my opinion) not for low end
62t cases stock
ex port height 35.5 mm
30 hours engine
33 cc ada domes
msd enhancer,all the rest stock
62t stator
b pipe mod
v force 3 reeds
95 octan
sea level ,free ride
single 48 carb

found that there was oil in flywheel stator area ,due to low comprssion seal
also between bottom cylinder and upper crank case
the rear cylinder sink 0.1 mm ,need to be decked
found that the stock flywheel had a 0.25 mm throw ,and rust around the rivets,looks like there is movment over there
do you think its a mecnical failure,or to much advaned timing that caused
pre detontion while the piston was on the way up before closing the ex port?
stator was set 5 deg advance
thank you guys
yigal
 

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DAG

Yes, my balls tickled from that landing
Location
Charlotte, NC
did you have both C clips and wristpin for each jug?
what clearance was used for the weiscos?

only because both pistons look the same, i would suspect extreme deto. but the carnage looks like something let go
 

dajnglst

Glass Happens
Location
Charleston SC
I would touch up the chamfer on all ports. By the looks of this cylinder it snagged a ring in exhaust port and ripped it off. Does not look like detonation, but did notice the single vacuum intake on case so if it's single carb set up it may have had a little air leak or starved for fuel a little, check carb mixture screw o-rings see if in good condition. Serious damage for wiseco with detonation so I would scrape my finger around exhaust ports first.

Also check and see if the top ring position pin has backed out of piston allowing the ring to spin around. That could cause ring snag also. Rare, but possible.
 
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the picture taken after reboring with a new pair of weisco piston again ,just to show the ex port width ,i suspect its to wide
about adjusting screws i will check
i chamfered all the ports after the new bore job
piston ring stop pin are in place
bdw this is not my ski helping a fraind ,and dont know all the engine history
thank you all for the help
 
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WFO Speedracer

A lifetime ban is like a lifetime warranty !
Location
Alabama
Oil in the flywheel area usually means bad crankshaft seal,which could cause extreme deto due to an air leak.
 

dajnglst

Glass Happens
Location
Charleston SC
We Doo, in most cases I have that the front crank seal will not cause air leak but simply bleed off primary compression. It bleeds air from crankcase into stator cover. Cover being sealed with good gasket and starter seal it won't suck in air just bleed it off.

BTW:

Check the crankshaft on this engine as it may have lost one of the main bearing pins that retain bearing race, that too could have possibly started the damage to the dome of the piston if it went flying around in there. If you saw oil around crankcase and cylinder then you may have pinched off the base gasket allowing it to leak. You have a mild mod motor, but a cheap leak down tester is going to save you a lot of money for petty mistakes and I would imagine Parts in Israel are not so easy to come by. Do you have a Yamaha dealer in your immediate area ?

(A South African friend of mine worked at a BMW motorcyle dealer in Tel Aviv
years ago)

I do think that 5 degrees plus the enhancer is almost like adjusting 12 degrees from stock oem CDI as enhancer already has built in advance. Index your flywheel with piston stop to find true top dead center. Mark it and check timing with your own marks.

Good luck with it. PM me if you need help. You surf ride in Tel Aviv ? Is it legal to ride in surf out there ? I did see some great surfing video's hosted on you tube from there.

Cheers.

DK
 
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thank you dajnglst and all you guys for helping
crankshaft bearing pins are in place
the main aluminum idler bearing broke ,so the crank was repleced by a new oem one
we have a kind of frainds parts bank , if some one has a problem and need fixing asap the part will be given ,and the guy that used it will order a new one from the us
we do have a yamaha dealer, but olmost nothing is in stock ,have to back order ,takes two to three weeks,and the prices outrages
the motor was fired up today and tested on 6 foot waves ,rolled cuople of times
until now ok
the stator was set to stock timing ,hoping it would prevent any future problems
it is not legal to surf ride in tel aviv ,you will have to go further south or north
and fines are 1000$
normaly i would check the engine for leaks ,puting it inside a big bowl of water ,block all opening, uses a car radiator pump, pressurise it to 10 psi and look for bubbles

ps one of the new weisco piston had a ring stop pin missing allways remeber to check!
 
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WFO Speedracer

A lifetime ban is like a lifetime warranty !
Location
Alabama
We Doo, in most cases I have that the front crank seal will not cause air leak but simply bleed off primary compression. It bleeds air from crankcase into stator cover. Cover being sealed with good gasket and starter seal it won't suck in air just bleed it off.

BTW:

Check the crankshaft on this engine as it may have lost one of the main bearing pins that retain bearing race, that too could have possibly started the damage to the dome of the piston if it went flying around in there. If you saw oil around crankcase and cylinder then you may have pinched off the base gasket allowing it to leak. You have a mild mod motor, but a cheap leak down tester is going to save you a lot of money for petty mistakes and I would imagine Parts in Israel are not so easy to come by. Do you have a Yamaha dealer in your immediate area ?

(A South African friend of mine worked at a BMW motorcyle dealer in Tel Aviv
years ago)

I do think that 5 degrees plus the enhancer is almost like adjusting 12 degrees from stock oem CDI as enhancer already has built in advance. Index your flywheel with piston stop to find true top dead center. Mark it and check timing with your own marks.

Good luck with it. PM me if you need help. You surf ride in Tel Aviv ? Is it legal to ride in surf out there ? I did see some great surfing video's hosted on you tube from there.

Cheers.

DK

This is a joke right? you really think that a front crank seal will not suck air and cause an air leak:scratchchin:?:bs2:I guess you would also believe that since there are two seals in the back of the crank if one goes out the other will keep it sealed up right?
 
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Kaveman

Born in USA(not Kenya)
This is a joke right? you really think that a front crank seal will not suck air and cause an air leak:scratchchin:?:bs2:I guess you would also believe that since there are two seals in the back of the crank if one goes out the other will keep it sealed up right?

pfft! Next you're going to tell us that it matters which way the arrow on top of the piston goes too! Everybody knows that you put them opposite each other to balance them out. Geez!
 

dajnglst

Glass Happens
Location
Charleston SC
:spank:

We Doo explain your hypothesis as to how the air will get sucked into Crankcase
if front seal is bad in the event case covers and starter motor are sealed up properly. Go Go gadget air leak. I'll await for you to enlighten us.

Not going to dig to hard on this one.
 

Matt_E

steals hub caps from cars
Site Supporter
Location
at peace
We Doo, in most cases I have that the front crank seal will not cause air leak but simply bleed off primary compression. It bleeds air from crankcase into stator cover. Cover being sealed with good gasket and starter seal it won't suck in air just bleed it off.





DK

What do you think happens on the other 180 degrees of crank rotation?
 

WFO Speedracer

A lifetime ban is like a lifetime warranty !
Location
Alabama
:spank:

We Doo explain your hypothesis as to how the air will get sucked into Crankcase
if front seal is bad in the event case covers and starter motor are sealed up properly. Go Go gadget air leak. I'll await for you to enlighten us.

Not going to dig to hard on this one.

I am not explaining anything I know what I speak of,you just keep posting and show us how much you know ok!:buttkick:
 

dajnglst

Glass Happens
Location
Charleston SC
Spoken like a true scholar. May you find peace in your ignorance lacking a complete comprehension.

YouTube - Kumbaya My Lord

I'll post up later with a conclusive pictorial from one of my machines.

Flame wars are kind of like the special olympics even if you win you have had to be retarded to get involved.

Here's to knowing what you know.

Cheers.
 

WFO Speedracer

A lifetime ban is like a lifetime warranty !
Location
Alabama
Spoken like a true scholar. May you find peace in your ignorance lacking a complete comprehension.

YouTube - Kumbaya My Lord

I'll post up later with a conclusive pictorial from one of my machines.

Flame wars are kind of like the special olympics even if you win you have had to be retarded to get involved.

Here's to knowing what you know.

Cheers.

Ok I will try to explain it to you but I doubt you will comprehend any of it.Yes it will bleed primary compression ,it will also suck just as much air as it displaces,possibly more,since the carb can only meter the fuel air ratio by the air that flows through it the mixture will now be too lean on that cylinder since unmetered air is now present with no additional fuel in it.I really hope you also believe that front case is sealed up that tight,it only takes the slightest leak for air to get in there ,that could be around the wire grommet,starter o-ring or the front cover gasket.Now if you have total loss like a lot of people run here there probably is some air getting in the front cover due to sealing problems at the grommet area.You also cannot change the volume area of the crankcase without it having a detrimental affect on engine performance.As Ricky Ricardo would say LUCYYYYYYY you gots some splaining to do!BTW I am not into flame wars at all but when I see someone post something that is just totally wrong and ridiculous I will call them on it.
 
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dajnglst

Glass Happens
Location
Charleston SC
Ok I will try to explain it to you but I doubt you will comprehend any of it.Yes it will bleed primary compression ,it will also suck just as much air as it displaces,possibly more,since the carb can only meter the fuel air ratio by the air that flows through it the mixture will now be too lean on that cylinder since unmetered air is now present with no additional fuel in it.I really hope you also believe that front case is sealed up that tight,it only takes the slightest leak for air to get in there ,that could be around the wire grommet,starter o-ring or the front cover gasket.Now if you have total loss like a lot of people run here there probably is some air getting in the front cover due to sealing problems at the grommet area.You also cannot change the volume area of the crankcase without it having a detrimental affect on engine performance.As Ricky Ricardo would say LUCYYYYYYY you gots some splaining to do!BTW I am not into flame wars at all but when I see someone post something that is just totally wrong and ridiculous I will call them on it.

Well let this be the last of what has become a little annoying flame war. To discredit my abilities and flagging BS on what you have not yet experienced leaves you a giant hole in credibility from me. It's not to say you don't posses
strong diagnosis skills.If it were not for differences in opinion there would be no enlightenment, mistakes and speculation lead to answers. Because you have not experienced this anomaly I have suggested does not mean it doesn't exist.

My comprehension of two cycle engines is fairly thorough having competed at the professional level of grand prix motorcycle road racing for a number of years. Having prepared and ridden machines myself that awarded me one AMA pro racing 250 GP win with an entire budget that would not have bought my competition a 1/2 seasons worth of tires. Having made chicken salad out of chicken droppings I know what works and what is not necessary. Receiving multiple club national championships and many AMA/WERA national podiums in addition to a seasons best finish of 2nd in the 99 national championship. I have had association with the some of the best two stroke tuners from this country as well as the UK. I have beaten their machines with skills I learned and a determination that I still apply to my daily work here at my shop.

The anomaly you have yet to experience has troubled my twin carbed 1994 sea doo explorer. My shop being gifted the machine as a support vessel to transport all our gear to the sand bars off our coast here in Charleston. The boat developed an air leak. Immediately after firing up the boat after sitting for a few months it revs up to about 4,500 rpm sustained and no adjustment of the idle speed adjuster would effect it. There was no way to make it idle without running at this high rpm. I removed spark plugs from engine and had come to find the front cylinder spark plug had captured the front/flywhhel side
crank seal spring. This spring wedged itself in the chamber of the spark plug around the porcelain. I proceeded to flush the boat out running the garden hose in an attempt to see if I could remedy the high rpm's. Had I not cooled the engine off it is likely the air leak would cause the front cylinder to run lean enough that it would heat up and possibly diesel run away on me. I have had such instances where the spark plug caps are removed, the kill lanyard pulled
and attempted to close off intakes with rags. The engine continued to rev out until it finally cooked itself. An over heated seizure that still pumped up 135 lb's compression when checked after the melt down. Having the need to test a customer machine out in our local pond complete with over 1200 alligators in less than 15 acres the explorer would have to be brought down to the water to act as a safety in the event the customers boat had any electrical issues.

Well low and behold the explorer is launched and once under a load with the now front crank seal spring missing guarantying an air leak the engine fires off both cylinders just fine at idle at runs steady at 2000 RPM or so. Accelerate away from the dock and machine actually works just as normal. Pulls away clean with no hesitation and still revs out to top speed. Mind you the 650 engine is not the most ideal engine size for this craft as every where you go it's running at wide open throttle. While over the water test riding the explorer we pull the new plugs out and would you believe the burn on each plug is identical. Running this boat on 60:1 premix and oil injection it has continued to run this way for the past 7 weeks or so. No signs of detonation and no loss of speed, but a significant loss in power when the boat is loaded with 3 or more people on board. Operating my shop as a one man band I have had little time to do any repairs on my own machines. Owning 8 personal jet ski's and this explorer there is always something to be repaired and working 6 days a week does not afford me the time to pull this engine. I do have a 720 engine I am building to replace the 650 in the boat now so I will continue to use the weak 650 with the leaky crank seal until it's finally bad enough not to pull us and our gear around.

This explorer when under a load is simply bleeding off primary compression into the stator cover causing a lean mixture and not enough fuel to get the engine revving out. This air leak due to the damaged front crank seal has not caused the engine to seize. Mind you it has been in operation for better than 7 weeks and still ticking. So yes a leaky crank seal can cause a significant loss in power, but if it occurs beneath a properly sealed stator cover in can not suck in an unlimited source of air to allow the mixture to be lean enough to cause seizure. If you are mixing a MACHO COMACHO 60:1 synthetic poppy seed based super happy fast go go lubricant in your 185 lb cranking superjet or the like then such an air leak may pose to be a significant problem. Tuning a screamer and tuning a dinghy are two completely different animals.

So with all due respect to yourself and my abilities there is such a scenario of a leaking front crank seal that will function without detrimental engine damage. I am NO BS artist. I would never speak of what I don't completely understand. If something is suggested, regardless of how far cast out there it may be, a simple difference of opinion will aid in completing the speculative evidence that will lead to a proper diagnosis. In this case scenario the front crank seal leak has not caused engine failure only a lack of performance.

Our opinions may vary but I will soon have this 650 engine pulled and can provide you the pics to detail what I am writing about.

You can call BS all you want but the anomaly exists.
 

WFO Speedracer

A lifetime ban is like a lifetime warranty !
Location
Alabama
Well let this be the last of what has become a little annoying flame war. To discredit my abilities and flagging BS on what you have not yet experienced leaves you a giant hole in credibility from me. It's not to say you don't posses
strong diagnosis skills.If it were not for differences in opinion there would be no enlightenment, mistakes and speculation lead to answers. Because you have not experienced this anomaly I have suggested does not mean it doesn't exist.

My comprehension of two cycle engines is fairly thorough having competed at the professional level of grand prix motorcycle road racing for a number of years. Having prepared and ridden machines myself that awarded me one AMA pro racing 250 GP win with an entire budget that would not have bought my competition a 1/2 seasons worth of tires. Having made chicken salad out of chicken droppings I know what works and what is not necessary. Receiving multiple club national championships and many AMA/WERA national podiums in addition to a seasons best finish of 2nd in the 99 national championship. I have had association with the some of the best two stroke tuners from this country as well as the UK. I have beaten their machines with skills I learned and a determination that I still apply to my daily work here at my shop.

The anomaly you have yet to experience has troubled my twin carbed 1994 sea doo explorer. My shop being gifted the machine as a support vessel to transport all our gear to the sand bars off our coast here in Charleston. The boat developed an air leak. Immediately after firing up the boat after sitting for a few months it revs up to about 4,500 rpm sustained and no adjustment of the idle speed adjuster would effect it. There was no way to make it idle without running at this high rpm. I removed spark plugs from engine and had come to find the front cylinder spark plug had captured the front/flywhhel side
crank seal spring. This spring wedged itself in the chamber of the spark plug around the porcelain. I proceeded to flush the boat out running the garden hose in an attempt to see if I could remedy the high rpm's. Had I not cooled the engine off it is likely the air leak would cause the front cylinder to run lean enough that it would heat up and possibly diesel run away on me. I have had such instances where the spark plug caps are removed, the kill lanyard pulled
and attempted to close off intakes with rags. The engine continued to rev out until it finally cooked itself. An over heated seizure that still pumped up 135 lb's compression when checked after the melt down. Having the need to test a customer machine out in our local pond complete with over 1200 alligators in less than 15 acres the explorer would have to be brought down to the water to act as a safety in the event the customers boat had any electrical issues.

Well low and behold the explorer is launched and once under a load with the now front crank seal spring missing guarantying an air leak the engine fires off both cylinders just fine at idle at runs steady at 2000 RPM or so. Accelerate away from the dock and machine actually works just as normal. Pulls away clean with no hesitation and still revs out to top speed. Mind you the 650 engine is not the most ideal engine size for this craft as every where you go it's running at wide open throttle. While over the water test riding the explorer we pull the new plugs out and would you believe the burn on each plug is identical. Running this boat on 60:1 premix and oil injection it has continued to run this way for the past 7 weeks or so. No signs of detonation and no loss of speed, but a significant loss in power when the boat is loaded with 3 or more people on board. Operating my shop as a one man band I have had little time to do any repairs on my own machines. Owning 8 personal jet ski's and this explorer there is always something to be repaired and working 6 days a week does not afford me the time to pull this engine. I do have a 720 engine I am building to replace the 650 in the boat now so I will continue to use the weak 650 with the leaky crank seal until it's finally bad enough not to pull us and our gear around.

This explorer when under a load is simply bleeding off primary compression into the stator cover causing a lean mixture and not enough fuel to get the engine revving out. This air leak due to the damaged front crank seal has not caused the engine to seize. Mind you it has been in operation for better than 7 weeks and still ticking. So yes a leaky crank seal can cause a significant loss in power, but if it occurs beneath a properly sealed stator cover in can not suck in an unlimited source of air to allow the mixture to be lean enough to cause seizure. If you are mixing a MACHO COMACHO 60:1 synthetic poppy seed based super happy fast go go lubricant in your 185 lb cranking superjet or the like then such an air leak may pose to be a significant problem. Tuning a screamer and tuning a dinghy are two completely different animals.

So with all due respect to yourself and my abilities there is such a scenario of a leaking front crank seal that will function without detrimental engine damage. I am NO BS artist. I would never speak of what I don't completely understand. If something is suggested, regardless of how far cast out there it may be, a simple difference of opinion will aid in completing the speculative evidence that will lead to a proper diagnosis. In this case scenario the front crank seal leak has not caused engine failure only a lack of performance.

Our opinions may vary but I will soon have this 650 engine pulled and can provide you the pics to detail what I am writing about.

You can call BS all you want but the anomaly exists.


So let me get this straight you took one instance where a front crank seal leak did not cause serious engine damage then used that instance to justify making a general statement about every front crank seal leak not causing engine damage,just to clarify is that right?Check back in with me when you have 20+years repairing watercraft under your belt like I do ok.
 
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dajnglst

Glass Happens
Location
Charleston SC
Gwan nwohhhh me dohn't, mayk dis ting known, dat me never say a jen a ral ting abowht evry frahn't carnk seeyal.

Jus cwause yah do what you tink you nwoh dohn't meeen dat ya no waht ya doin.

Dohn't go and pwuaght legs on dis ting and gwan say me sug jest it dohn hap phan in evreeeeeey khase.

Me dohn enlighten a fyu wit duh info.

Me dohn't need or dz i yahr yhor kind words.

Nuff rspeckt.

Nuttah !
 

WFO Speedracer

A lifetime ban is like a lifetime warranty !
Location
Alabama
You are a dumbazz ,I knew it from your first post,please continue posting so everyone else will know also.I am through with this pissing match have a nice life! I will have the infraction burger with cheese and a large Haterade to drink please!
 
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