Other Why isnt anyone competing with yamaha in the mass production of stand ups?

OCD Solutions

Original, Clean and Dependable Solutions
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Rentz, GA
Why just the focus on the hull? It's roughly 1/3rd the total cost of the ski and a very small piece of the puzzle. Yamaha and Kawasaki don't seem to get too upset with us buying their parts to put together aftermarket skis but in reality, if one was to start producing an a/m ski in volume, they would also have to start from scratch and source every single little part we currently take for granted.
 
Why just the focus on the hull? It's roughly 1/3rd the total cost of the ski and a very small piece of the puzzle. Yamaha and Kawasaki don't seem to get too upset with us buying their parts to put together aftermarket skis but in reality, if one was to start producing an a/m ski in volume, they would also have to start from scratch and source every single little part we currently take for granted.

Yeah I was thinking about that while reading this.

If you tried to compete with yamaha with ready to ride skis obviously they aren't going to be cool with you stealing their driveline right? You need an engine that works just as well to even get a sale.
 

OCD Solutions

Original, Clean and Dependable Solutions
Location
Rentz, GA
I was involved in talks a couple years ago regarding a new power plant and the price per unit was $800 if I purchased 10,000 units.

Anyone got a calculator handy to tally all those zero's?

And that is just the Hull and Motor so far. We haven't discussed pump, steering, driveshaft or the countless other little parts that all add up to the sum of all parts.

Here is $13K surf ski laid out nice and neat for some perspective.

DSC01494.jpgDSC01502.jpgDSC01508.jpgDSC01506.jpg
 

sjetrider

615 Freeriders are addicted to T1 madness.
Yamaha doesnt even build these for what we use them for anyway. They only care about the race circuit. No large company will produce a Freestyle jetski as the risk and damages are too high.
Even if someone were to come out with a high production freestyle ski and get the price down to something reasonable you would quickly realise that the performance would STILL not be up to par with the aftermarket products. They cannot build top quality carbs, electric, pipes and hulls quick enough to support the lower cost and demands so they would skimp with OEM style carbs, an easier to build quick wet pipe and a more reliable ignition system all equals lower performance. Not to mention the Federal regulations involved telling producers that their products have to meet strict EPA requirements. Yamaha only gets away with the SJ because the majority of there products exceed epa regulations.

Rickter had a great plan to mass produce hulls in Thialand, but it definately did not make them cost efficient, the only hull they have that is worth comparing to KDX, Superfreaks or even the Backy Chan is the Ninja and the dayum thing cost more than any of the above mentioned hulls even though they have a full plant with cheap labor set up to build them.
Beside, this is a constantly changing market. To produce on high volume would be rediculous and it floods the market with a product that will be obsolete next year so you have the added expense and challange of staying ahead of a curve and getting new products out before the next guy with the latest inovative idea.

It takes someone with a true love of the sport that only hopes to at least break even in the end and hopes to make $ . Pat Bogart is a prime example. New hull every 2 years, new pole designs, new motor and pump designs that all seem to be ahead of the curve. He has pro riders and highly talented motor builders working with him to stay there. I promise its not because he is making millions doing it. It is because of his love for the sport. Dont get me wrong, he makes $ but he spends whatever it takes to keep what he feels is the best product in the sport that he loves. I doubt he will ever close his main business down in persuit of retiring on this industry. I could be wrong but thats what I assume is the case in the xscream world.

Imagine what it cost in time and $ to be involved in producing SO MANY parts that are top level from controls to hulls and motors and pumps and even involved in PFP production.
Like any good business he was smart enough to employ people who help him stay ahead of the curve.

Sounds like an xscream commercial huh. But its not, he is really just the only one I know of that has gone ALL IN. Rickter / RRP is in it but they do not produce motors, pump housings, pipe chambers and IMO are not doing it in a cost efficient way. How can their carbon hull be produced in a cheap labor country and still cost as much or more than a KDX or Backy Chan produced in the US?
 
Yamaha doesnt even build these for what we use them for anyway. They only care about the race circuit. No large company will produce a Freestyle jetski as the risk and damages are too high.
Even if someone were to come out with a high production freestyle ski and get the price down to something reasonable you would quickly realise that the performance would STILL not be up to par with the aftermarket products. They cannot build top quality carbs, electric, pipes and hulls quick enough to support the lower cost and demands so they would skimp with OEM style carbs, an easier to build quick wet pipe and a more reliable ignition system all equals lower performance. Not to mention the Federal regulations involved telling producers that their products have to meet strict EPA requirements. Yamaha only gets away with the SJ because the majority of there products exceed epa regulations.

Rickter had a great plan to mass produce hulls in Thialand, but it definately did not make them cost efficient, the only hull they have that is worth comparing to KDX, Superfreaks or even the Backy Chan is the Ninja and the dayum thing cost more than any of the above mentioned hulls even though they have a full plant with cheap labor set up to build them.
Beside, this is a constantly changing market. To produce on high volume would be rediculous and it floods the market with a product that will be obsolete next year so you have the added expense and challange of staying ahead of a curve and getting new products out before the next guy with the latest inovative idea.

It takes someone with a true love of the sport that only hopes to at least break even in the end and hopes to make $ . Pat Bogart is a prime example. New hull every 2 years, new pole designs, new motor and pump designs that all seem to be ahead of the curve. He has pro riders and highly talented motor builders working with him to stay there. I promise its not because he is making millions doing it. It is because of his love for the sport. Dont get me wrong, he makes $ but he spends whatever it takes to keep what he feels is the best product in the sport that he loves. I doubt he will ever close his main business down in persuit of retiring on this industry. I could be wrong but thats what I assume is the case in the xscream world.

Imagine what it cost in time and $ to be involved in producing SO MANY parts that are top level from controls to hulls and motors and pumps and even involved in PFP production.
Like any good business he was smart enough to employ people who help him stay ahead of the curve.

Sounds like an xscream commercial huh. But its not, he is really just the only one I know of that has gone ALL IN. Rickter / RRP is in it but they do not produce motors, pump housings, pipe chambers and IMO are not doing it in a cost efficient way. How can their carbon hull be produced in a cheap labor country and still cost as much or more than a KDX or Backy Chan produced in the US?

Great post..

To answer your last question - I suspect it's all about the margin... :biggrin:
 
I for one like that Yamaha only sells a few hundred each year and that there is no major competition. It forces smaller AM companies to jump in and grab a slice of the pie. Without hulls like the Rickter / B.O.B. / Matrix /etc. we wouldn't have ever seen cool changes to the standard hull design. You think Yamaha would ever have come up with the idea of rockering the nose section or making a shorter hull to flip? Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooope!

So kudos to the AM world. Now let's hope they can find a way to bring the cost down just a bit to get more people interested/started in the sport and bring it back to it's glory days!
 

OCD Solutions

Original, Clean and Dependable Solutions
Location
Rentz, GA
We need to keep the big names interested and in the business otherwise, 10 years from now, the Superjet will be as obscure as the X2 is today.

Hopefully the aftermarket offerings have reached a point where they can sustain and possibly even grow the market in the absence of the big dogs.
 
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With so many AM companies pretty much reproducing EVERY part needed to build a ski, if production of the SJ stopped, it wouldn't hurt us at all. I for one would NEVER spend 9-10K on a STOCK ski, knowing that it will take about 4-5K more to get it where I want it. What they SHOULD do is bring the price back down to an affordable level. I'm good with spending 4 grand on a used ski that probably has 3 grand in parts already on it.

Just my .02
 

Vumad

Super Hero, with a cape!
Location
St. Pete, FL
We need to keep the big names interested and in the business otherwise, 10 years from now, the Superjet will be as obscure as the X2 is today.

Hopefully the aftermarket offerings have reached a point where they can sustain and possibly even grow the market in the absence of the big dogs.

:):):):) I hope so. Last freeride I went to, there were x2 everywhere!!
 
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