Custom/Hybrid Why no one piece forged cranks ?

Location
Fl
Ok I know there must be a simple reason other than the rods that no one has done it , but if they sell a one piece forged crank for a VW @ under $200 without rods it makes me think it may be worth looking at closer, may have to press one end and make a hybrid crank, but I'm not a motor head . Fire away your good ,bad and ugly comments !
 
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easyrhino

needs more cowbell.
Location
The river
the older U.S. outboard motor had 1 piece cranks and 2 piece rods. It cost more and the roller bearings are more happy rolling in a 1 piece rod.
 

Waternut

Customizing addict
Location
Macon, GA
The 2 piece rod can't be all that bad since almost every car out there uses a 2 piece rod design and they last a heck of a lot longer than 2 stroke crankshafts. Before anyone says that we run our engines harder and at higher rpms than cars do, let me say this... The first generation Honda S2000's use a 2.0L 4 cyl engine. Compression ratio is lower at 11:1 but cranking compression is around 230psi. At 75mph those engines are also cranking out 4300rpms in 6th gear and redline at 9000rpms. Racers with turbochargers have gotten well over 300k miles out of these engines so 2 piece rods are more than proven. Now we would suffer from clearance issues in the case though so I can understand that.

In terms of why not forged... I think it's purely because the cast cranks are cheaper and those with the extra money for something nicer get a hard on for the word "billet" and go that route. The biggest advantage to billet is the grain structure of the metal but since the only quality assurance we get is from the paper pushers that sell the products, we have no real way to know if the billet crank was even built properly. I also suspect that the tooling required to manufacture forged cranks for our sport would make breaking even on the investment difficult.
 

WFO Speedracer

A lifetime ban is like a lifetime warranty !
Location
Alabama
The 2 piece rod can't be all that bad since almost every car out there uses a 2 piece rod design and they last a heck of a lot longer than 2 stroke crankshafts. Before anyone says that we run our engines harder and at higher rpms than cars do, let me say this... The first generation Honda S2000's use a 2.0L 4 cyl engine. Compression ratio is lower at 11:1 but cranking compression is around 230psi. At 75mph those engines are also cranking out 4300rpms in 6th gear and redline at 9000rpms. Racers with turbochargers have gotten well over 300k miles out of these engines so 2 piece rods are more than proven. Now we would suffer from clearance issues in the case though so I can understand that.

In terms of why not forged... I think it's purely because the cast cranks are cheaper and those with the extra money for something nicer get a hard on for the word "billet" and go that route. The biggest advantage to billet is the grain structure of the metal but since the only quality assurance we get is from the paper pushers that sell the products, we have no real way to know if the billet crank was even built properly. I also suspect that the tooling required to manufacture forged cranks for our sport would make breaking even on the investment difficult.

You are talking apples and oranges here, four strokes have plain bearing cranks which require a pressure fed lubrication system and at least 40-50 psi to operate correctly, more rpms than stock, higher compression etc requires more oil pressure. Two strokes have no pressure fed lubrication and the roller bearings they use don't need it, they work just fine with the amount of oil premixed or injected into the crankcase.
 

easyrhino

needs more cowbell.
Location
The river
yes, the old outboard(when I worked on them) had a two piece rod with roller bearing. It's weird how they make a two piece con rod. It starts out as one piece. Then they break off the cap, bolt it together and machine.
 

Waternut

Customizing addict
Location
Macon, GA
You are talking apples and oranges here, four strokes have plain bearing cranks which require a pressure fed lubrication system and at least 40-50 psi to operate correctly, more rpms than stock, higher compression etc requires more oil pressure. Two strokes have no pressure fed lubrication and the roller bearings they use don't need it, they work just fine with the amount of oil premixed or injected into the crankcase.

I'm not all that familiar with how 4 strokes so good info to know...
 
yes, the old outboard(when I worked on them) had a two piece rod with roller bearing. It's weird how they make a two piece con rod. It starts out as one piece. Then they break off the cap, bolt it together and machine.

Its even been done with center main bearings in cast iron blocks, however the center main bearing saddles need to be more stable than an aluminum block (crankcase) can provide. The present $1000 oem cranks probably cost less than $200 to manufacture. A forging with the needed heat treatment of the journals and 2 piece bearings and rods would break the bank!
 

WFO Speedracer

A lifetime ban is like a lifetime warranty !
Location
Alabama
This is correct, single cylinder four stroke cranks are usually pressed together crankshafts with ball bearing pressed into the cases very similar to a watercraft crankshaft, but most of these engines are used in four wheelers and dirt bikes.There are of course some four stroke single street bikes, usually with an engine fairly common to a dirt bike engine by the same MFG. In those ATV and dirt bike applications a plain bearing crank which is much more susceptible to damage by dirt and contaminates in the oil would not be a good idea, the roller bearing crankshafts are a lot more tolerant of dirt and contaminates in the oil and and take a lot more abuse.All it takes to kill a plain bearing crank is a few grains of sand in the right locations.One more four stroke engine of note that used a roller bearing crank was the KZ1000 street bike, many a drag racing engine was based on this engine because the roller bearing crankshaft in it was damn near bulletproof.
 
Location
Fl
Gather around childrens, along time ago in the mountains of Colorado we thought we were hot stuff on are RD 350-400s untill this guy shows up on this new KZ 1000 , he would kill us on the straits but we could pass back in the twistys if he was in sight .
 

Proformance1

Liquid Insanity
Site Supporter
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Location
New York Crew
LOL, funny thing about this thread is years ago we wanted to make a 4 stroke forged crank that had press on bearings like a 2 stroke, so we could get better rpms and longer life out of the bearings
 

WFO Speedracer

A lifetime ban is like a lifetime warranty !
Location
Alabama
Only thing about KZ1000's is they have a hinge in the middle and at certain speeds when cornering you could easily get one into a death wobble.
 
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