Yamaha J650C issues in Jet-N-Spray

Location
MI
Hey,

I have a Yamaha J650C with Riva Red pipe in my Jet-N-Spray ive been restoring. Ran great early last year. Towards end of season it started occasionally making a brapbababa kind of sound after it shut off then turned back on. This year it's starts up and sounds great on 1st startup but any stop/starts after it makes same sound. Ive tried adjusting hi & low on carb to be richer or leaner and it doesn't seem to make a difference. Fuel is fresh and I mix approx 40:1. Engine seems to get really hot, so I checked water is flowing through the engine as intended. Someone mentioned on a FB group it could be the temp sensor. Thoughts? Is there a way to test the temp sensor?
 

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It could be the temp sensor doing it. You should get inside the ebox and unplug it anyway as they are known to be problematic. While you're inside there do a test on the coil too. The primary winding which is the small bullet connector wires coming from the coil are unplugged and the test probes from your multimeter go as one test lead on one wire, the other lead on the other and set the meter to the lowest resistance value it offers unless it's an auto ranging meter. It should be around 80-105 ohms of resistance. If it's a lot higher then the primary winding is breaking down internally which means it's time to be replaced. If that passes the test then put one probe in one spark plug boot and the other in the other plug boot and set the test meter for around the 5K setting and test. It should be somewhere in the 3.5-4.7K ohms range, if it's a lot higher then the coil is toast. I have found when the coil is failing it will do what I call Lawnboy running lol. If you have any experience with the old 2-stroke Lawboy lawnmowers they were quite often a rather hit n miss running condition meaning they weren't smooth and consistent, they would rev and pop and puke a little lol. When you get that kind of a chop chop pop pop sound profile that means it's running more often than not on one cylinder which is the secondary winding of the coil. My thoughts though are that the motor has well more than around 220 hours on it and it's due for a new crank. You're not able to tune it because the crank bearings are worn out and opening an air gap between the crank and crank seals allowing unregulated air into the system. By your description it sounds like it's lean so it could be sucking in air from somewhere it's not supposed to be. It's also possible but less likely that the CDI is pooched but I would just get a little bottle of oxygen and a hose with torch tip from say Harbor Freight, set it up and open the oxygen valve a little then apply the oxygen to the crank seal on the rear (PTO) to see if the engine revs up on its own. If not, try that around the base of the carb, gaskets on the intake and the base gasket on the engine. If it revs up at all right at the area you're applying air to then you know you have an air leak and it's time for at least that area to have new gaskets for that area installed or if you're capable, an engine refresh and all new gaskets. Applying the oxygen though on as many gaskets and seals from the bottom of the carb and down is going to be the easiest test you can do if you suspect it is an air leak. BY your details, carb adjustments didn't change anything...then you have an air leak somewhere. Until you get the air leaks sealed, no amount of carb adjusting will have any real effect on it. It will just continue to run like it's hitting a rev limiter.
 
Location
MI
It could be the temp sensor doing it. You should get inside the ebox and unplug it anyway as they are known to be problematic. While you're inside there do a test on the coil too. The primary winding which is the small bullet connector wires coming from the coil are unplugged and the test probes from your multimeter go as one test lead on one wire, the other lead on the other and set the meter to the lowest resistance value it offers unless it's an auto ranging meter. It should be around 80-105 ohms of resistance. If it's a lot higher then the primary winding is breaking down internally which means it's time to be replaced. If that passes the test then put one probe in one spark plug boot and the other in the other plug boot and set the test meter for around the 5K setting and test. It should be somewhere in the 3.5-4.7K ohms range, if it's a lot higher then the coil is toast. I have found when the coil is failing it will do what I call Lawnboy running lol. If you have any experience with the old 2-stroke Lawboy lawnmowers they were quite often a rather hit n miss running condition meaning they weren't smooth and consistent, they would rev and pop and puke a little lol. When you get that kind of a chop chop pop pop sound profile that means it's running more often than not on one cylinder which is the secondary winding of the coil. My thoughts though are that the motor has well more than around 220 hours on it and it's due for a new crank. You're not able to tune it because the crank bearings are worn out and opening an air gap between the crank and crank seals allowing unregulated air into the system. By your description it sounds like it's lean so it could be sucking in air from somewhere it's not supposed to be. It's also possible but less likely that the CDI is pooched but I would just get a little bottle of oxygen and a hose with torch tip from say Harbor Freight, set it up and open the oxygen valve a little then apply the oxygen to the crank seal on the rear (PTO) to see if the engine revs up on its own. If not, try that around the base of the carb, gaskets on the intake and the base gasket on the engine. If it revs up at all right at the area you're applying air to then you know you have an air leak and it's time for at least that area to have new gaskets for that area installed or if you're capable, an engine refresh and all new gaskets. Applying the oxygen though on as many gaskets and seals from the bottom of the carb and down is going to be the easiest test you can do if you suspect it is an air leak. BY your details, carb adjustments didn't change anything...then you have an air leak somewhere. Until you get the air leaks sealed, no amount of carb adjusting will have any real effect on it. It will just continue to run like it's hitting a rev limiter.
Thank you for the detailed response. I will start working through this.

I don't know how many hours are technically on this engine. Bought the boat with engine disassembled winter of '22 and rebuilt it with new bearings on the crank and all new gaskets and new carb before running it summer of '23. Right at end of '23 season it was sounding rough and I discovered the outer most rear crank seal at PTO partially popped out and when I pulled the engine to address that, I found I had a small leak at the exhaust /manifold flange. Pulled the lower end and replace all crank seals again and lower gasket and sealed everything up again so im inclined to think it's tied to temp sensor. Last season I had thr carb tuned really rich so I originally assume after fixing the seals this year I was too rich.....
 
Glad to see you have some experience with wrenching, it definitely helps to narrow down the issues. When you redid the seals and gasket, did you do a pressure test on the assembled motor as well? That'll be the final test for air leaks with the engine cold. Since the crank was rebuilt, as long as it was done well and used top tier bearings then it should be safe to say that it's fine. Anything is possible but I would be inclined to say the crank is fine if I knew it was rebuilt within the last year. On the carb tuning side, it's good to have it rich and lean it out slightly until it peaks well but do this initially on the trailer in very short tests. If you hold it wide open and it's too lean you'll be rebuilding it again lol.
 
Location
MI
It could be the temp sensor doing it. You should get inside the ebox and unplug it anyway as they are known to be problematic. While you're inside there do a test on the coil too. The primary winding which is the small bullet connector wires coming from the coil are unplugged and the test probes from your multimeter go as one test lead on one wire, the other lead on the other and set the meter to the lowest resistance value it offers unless it's an auto ranging meter. It should be around 80-105 ohms of resistance. If it's a lot higher then the primary winding is breaking down internally which means it's time to be replaced. If that passes the test then put one probe in one spark plug boot and the other in the other plug boot and set the test meter for around the 5K setting and test. It should be somewhere in the 3.5-4.7K ohms range, if it's a lot higher then the coil is toast. I have found when the coil is failing it will do what I call Lawnboy running lol. If you have any experience with the old 2-stroke Lawboy lawnmowers they were quite often a rather hit n miss running condition meaning they weren't smooth and consistent, they would rev and pop and puke a little lol. When you get that kind of a chop chop pop pop sound profile that means it's running more often than not on one cylinder which is the secondary winding of the coil. My thoughts though are that the motor has well more than around 220 hours on it and it's due for a new crank. You're not able to tune it because the crank bearings are worn out and opening an air gap between the crank and crank seals allowing unregulated air into the system. By your description it sounds like it's lean so it could be sucking in air from somewhere it's not supposed to be. It's also possible but less likely that the CDI is pooched but I would just get a little bottle of oxygen and a hose with torch tip from say Harbor Freight, set it up and open the oxygen valve a little then apply the oxygen to the crank seal on the rear (PTO) to see if the engine revs up on its own. If not, try that around the base of the carb, gaskets on the intake and the base gasket on the engine. If it revs up at all right at the area you're applying air to then you know you have an air leak and it's time for at least that area to have new gaskets for that area installed or if you're capable, an engine refresh and all new gaskets. Applying the oxygen though on as many gaskets and seals from the bottom of the carb and down is going to be the easiest test you can do if you suspect it is an air leak. BY your details, carb adjustments didn't change anything...then you have an air leak somewhere. Until you get the air leaks sealed, no amount of carb adjusting will have any real effect on it. It will just continue to run like it's hitting a rev limiter.

Glad to see you have some experience with wrenching, it definitely helps to narrow down the issues. When you redid the seals and gasket, did you do a pressure test on the assembled motor as well? That'll be the final test for air leaks with the engine cold. Since the crank was rebuilt, as long as it was done well and used top tier bearings then it should be safe to say that it's fine. Anything is possible but I would be inclined to say the crank is fine if I knew it was rebuilt within the last year. On the carb tuning side, it's good to have it rich and lean it out slightly until it peaks well but do this initially on the trailer in very short tests. If you hold it wide open and it's too lean you'll be rebuilding it again lol.
Did not do a engine pressure test prior to putting it back in boat. But, Pulled the temp sensor and tested the coil, coil tested fine but found the wires at the boot were brittle so cut those back a bit and got rid of the brittle and reattached the boots. I had used a spark tester before and Spark was good so not sure my wire mend had any impact. I had the carb tuned a little rich in the driveway and didn't feel the need to adjust any on the water. It ran great after removal of temp sensor. Couldn't get it to make the sound, and I shut it off and back on again several times. My only concern now is actual temp of engine. Since we pulled temp sensor we decided to run a "pisser" line with a needle valve so we could keep a pulse on temps. And when running that water is so hot you can't put a foot or hand in the stream more than a second. Used temp gun and check head temp a few times and it got up to 200F for a bit. Most of the times I check it was around 190F. My questions are - What is too hot? And what can you do to improve cooling?

I should note, I have confirmed good water flow through engine, no blockages.
 
I'm not sure what is considered too hot, maybe someone else can chime in on that. As for the hot water I don't know what to suggest as I have never had the issue. I have seen it on a WaveBlaster with a Factory Pipe on it but it never blew up and it was used a bunch. It belonged to a guy in my old riding group. His bypass sprayer was rotated up so whenever you leaned the ski onto it's right side you would get a fountain of scorching water all over you lol. All I can think of is that there's not enough water passing through the system fast enough. In this situation I can only suggest going over the lines and make sure there are no kinked hoses, you'll still have water passing through that will look like there's no blockage but it just won't be enough volume. The Riva red pipe I believe is a wet pipe, if it's not setup with parallel cooling meaning an independent supply line to the motor and one to the pipe, then the pipe is getting the already heated water from the motor and adding more heat to it before it goes out of the overboard sprayer. If it's not moving enough water fast enough you'll bring the temps up on the semi-standing water in there. I would think checking the impeller and pump housing would be in order for water volume and flow as well as the hoses. If the impeller is worn down it won't push the same volume as a new impeller will into the supply fitting on the pump and will just add to the lower volume and flow rate problem.
 
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