Zeel or Msd enhancer

[Sparkplug]

I run brand new batteries. Noco 14s. Brand new cables. Soldered and crimped correctly. Even went to 4 gauge on my grounds. Fresh clean perfect tested stator*. T. And x. And went through different 2 zeel setups giving the exact same issue.

Zeel is picky. I don't care what anyone says. It's a universal ignition concept stuffed into every powersport place it can fit itself or get its nose isln. Does it work? Yes. Does it malfunction? Yes. Does msd malfunction? Yes. Is the occurrence vs amount of product on market the same as zeel? Not by a fawking long shot.

For Joe schmo. Who isn't competing into the free to view connpetions with 8 competitors. A stock t cdi is gonna be our best bet.

 

[Jr.]

I run brand new batteries. Noco 14s. Brand new cables. Soldered and crimped correctly. Even went to 4 gauge on my grounds. Fresh clean perfect tested stator*. T. And x. And went through different 2 zeel setups giving the exact same issue.

Zeel is picky. I don't care what anyone says. It's a universal ignition concept stuffed into every powersport place it can fit itself or get its nose isln. Does it work? Yes. Does it malfunction? Yes. Does msd malfunction? Yes. Is the occurrence vs amount of product on market the same as zeel? Not by a fawking long shot.

For Joe schmo. Who isn't competing into the free to view connpetions with 8 competitors. A stock t cdi is gonna be our best bet.

Your comments and point of view is interesting? I'm curious as to what Zeel models and what exact issue was? No Doubt the OEM cdi with a rev limiter mod is above and beyond the reliability winner! We have all run that setup for ages. But in the name of progress, New products always make their way into the market. Yes, there is always a learning curve with every one of them. Ignition in general is a concept to fire the motor. stating the zeel is a universal ignition is a little stretched. Maybe since they make so many applications across the powersport market ? I could see your point. The ones I have been directly involved with are uniquely different to each application.

Please reach out either here or via PM? I would like to understand what the issue is, and if there is a solution to it?

P

 

[wiikstromm]

Zeel/msd total loss/ATP etc etc its aftermarket stand alone ignitions you need to know or get knowledge about the product to get it to work as it should, and when you got that, its really good stuff.

 

[kevbo]

I always gave the ignition its own battery. The new lithium ion cells make it safe and easy. Not a problem at all for "total loss" users but probably too difficult for everyone else.

 

[High Speed Industries]

You can fill the outside of a barn with what I dont know. But if you can set a zeel to match a TL timing curve, have hotter spark, and run a lightened flywheel with no magnets. Wouldn't that be leaps and bounds better than an Enhancer? As far as reliability it seems to be hit or miss on both the msd and the zeel.

So I just did a back test with a customer about a month ago.

Ski setup:
Tpe 1200 (race fuel)
SE50’s
Pfp
Skat 160
Zeel TL

We tried an assortment of curves and it ran good, but I was never really wowed by it. We tried our own curves and curves that are “proven” from other shops out there.

We removed the ignition system and installed an enhancer with a J315 charging flywheel.

Went back to the water for testing and it was a very noticeable gain.

The gain was mainly down low, but you could notice it everywhere.

To be fair maybe I don’t know what I’m doing with the zeel. Somebody please educate me.

With the MSD the orientation of the stator will make or break it.

People love to disagree in this industry. I’m guilty of it myself.

So I guess take my comment with a grain of salt.

It’s hard because there is no way to measure the output on these skis and have solid data. It’s all by feel.

 

[High Speed Industries]

I have been doing a lot of work with the Zeel Y62T on the big 1200. I agree the Enhancer is a proven performer.
Not to contradict Joey, but to a degree, setup and map does come into play. As well as mutiple other tuning factors in ultimate setup.
the ignition is just a piece of the puzzle to how it all runs. Every tuner has his recipe for success.
At the 2023 World finals Pro Division, Willems, Wright, and Ziegler all were running Zeel Y62T CDI on charging systems.
I honestly dont know if there was an Enhancer in the mix? Joey, can you clarify?

P

I’ll chat with ya next weekend at Daytona!

 

[Storbeck]

So I just did a back test with a customer about a month ago.

Ski setup:
Tpe 1200 (race fuel)
SE50’s
Pfp
Skat 160
Zeel TL

We tried an assortment of curves and it ran good, but I was never really wowed by it. We tried our own curves and curves that are “proven” from other shops out there.

We removed the ignition system and installed an enhancer with a J315 charging flywheel.

Went back to the water for testing and it was a very noticeable gain.

The gain was mainly down low, but you could notice it everywhere.

To be fair maybe I don’t know what I’m doing with the zeel. Somebody please educate me.

With the MSD the orientation of the stator will make or break it.

People love to disagree in this industry. I’m guilty of it myself.

So I guess take my comment with a grain of salt.

It’s hard because there is no way to measure the output on these skis and have solid data. It’s all by feel.

If you were running total loss it was not a 62t zeel. Don't know see any reason why that would matter, but for what its worth I think most people in this are kind of assuming this is about the 62t zeel vs msd.

 

[kevbo]

I’ll chat with ya next weekend at Daytona!

Did you confirm the timing?

 

[Jr.]

So I just did a back test with a customer about a month ago.

Ski setup:
Tpe 1200 (race fuel)
SE50’s
Pfp
Skat 160
Zeel TL

We tried an assortment of curves and it ran good, but I was never really wowed by it. We tried our own curves and curves that are “proven” from other shops out there.

We removed the ignition system and installed an enhancer with a J315 charging flywheel.

Went back to the water for testing and it was a very noticeable gain.

The gain was mainly down low, but you could notice it everywhere.

To be fair maybe I don’t know what I’m doing with the zeel. Somebody please educate me.

With the MSD the orientation of the stator will make or break it.

People love to disagree in this industry. I’m guilty of it myself.

So I guess take my comment with a grain of salt.

It’s hard because there is no way to measure the output on these skis and have solid data. It’s all by feel.

I know your issue already. Being your running as a TL, means your running the A02T cdi. The design of this unit pulls a substantial amount of its energy from the rectifier. Running it as TL means your giving that up for the benefit of a lighter rotating mass or flywheel.
i have proven that they run better as a lightened charging, rather than TL. I have also proven that the Y62T cdi with an Alum Charging flywheel gives amazing results. Closest I have found to a true MSD TL setup. But, many like the simplicity of a Enhancer, with Alum charging , on the big motors. Key to that is finding correct stator location

 

[High Speed Industries]

I know your issue already. Being your running as a TL, means your running the A02T cdi. The design of this unit pulls a substantial amount of its energy from the rectifier. Running it as TL means your giving that up for the benefit of a lighter rotating mass or flywheel.
i have proven that they run better as a lightened charging, rather than TL. I have also proven that the Y62T cdi with an Alum Charging flywheel gives amazing results. Closest I have found to a true MSD TL setup. But, many like the simplicity of a Enhancer, with Alum charging , on the big motors. Key to that is finding correct stator location

The test I mentioned was my most recent one. I should have mentioned that this was against the A02T with TL.

I’ve also tried it against it with A02T / charging and the 62T version.

I agree with you that the 62T performs better than the A02T.

 

[High Speed Industries]

Did you confirm the timing?

Yes.

 

[97superjet]

I know your issue already. Being your running as a TL, means your running the A02T cdi. The design of this unit pulls a substantial amount of its energy from the rectifier. Running it as TL means your giving that up for the benefit of a lighter rotating mass or flywheel.
i have proven that they run better as a lightened charging, rather than TL. I have also proven that the Y62T cdi with an Alum Charging flywheel gives amazing results. Closest I have found to a true MSD TL setup. But, many like the simplicity of a Enhancer, with Alum charging , on the big motors. Key to that is finding correct stator location

Interesting... I have my A02T set up as total loss and its honesty kind of a B, the flywheel is nice and light but if you area having better results with a charging ignition I may just switch to that, try it out but also ease of use...

 

[Storbeck]

I know your issue already. Being your running as a TL, means your running the A02T cdi. The design of this unit pulls a substantial amount of its energy from the rectifier. Running it as TL means your giving that up for the benefit of a lighter rotating mass or flywheel.
i have proven that they run better as a lightened charging, rather than TL. I have also proven that the Y62T cdi with an Alum Charging flywheel gives amazing results. Closest I have found to a true MSD TL setup. But, many like the simplicity of a Enhancer, with Alum charging , on the big motors. Key to that is finding correct stator location

This is just baffling to me. The 62t charging system so weak, it does very little to increase battery voltage. According to the yamaha manual, is good for 2-4Amps, barely enough to keep up with a bilge pump (The specs on a Rule 350GPM pump is 2.5amps, according to Rule).

So this is like saying the ignition will perform noticeably better if the bilge pump is turned off vs turned on.

The max current draw listed on the Zeeltronics spec sheet for an A02T is 1.5 amps.

 

[SteveC]

The specs on a Rule 350GPM pump is 2.5amps, according to Rule

FWIW: I suspect that’s max current, for fusing purposes. As such, in the nominal no-water-in-hull scenario, the current draw would be much lower.

 

[Storbeck]

FWIW: I suspect that’s max current, for fusing purposes. As such, in the nominal no-water-in-hull scenario, the current draw would be much lower.

Valid point.

Still, the idea that the ignition is significantly affected by the charging is just hard to fathom.

Even a fully charged battery vs slightly discharged seems like it would make a much bigger difference.

Not saying I dispute the conclusion, the result is the result, just questioning the hypothesis on why that is the result.

 

[bored&stroked]

Valid point.

Still, the idea that the ignition is significantly affected by the charging is just hard to fathom.

Even a fully charged battery vs slightly discharged seems like it would make a much bigger difference.

Not saying I dispute the conclusion, the result is the result, just questioning the hypothesis on why that is the result.

He said it pulls most power from rectifier, not the battery. No charging means no rectifier power right?

 

[SteveC]

No charging means no rectifier power right?

That’s correct

 

[kevbo]

Charging voltage will always be greater than battery voltage or else the battery wont charge. The Zeel could be operating from the elevated charge voltage which will quickly change with small load changes. I dont know how robust the Zeel electronics are but it would need a sizeable filter to stabilize input voltage. I think the best way to deal with this kind of system is with its own battery.

 

[Jr.]

Here is how I discovered the charging benefit. Back when zeel was just becoming popular. I started my testing.
On my personal ski (surf T1, TPE 1021, spec 49’s, B /TnT ) as most of you know, im a tuning junkie. Anyone who ever climbed in my tray knows this. I setup the 02T zeel TL (760 version) tuned it mint. Had a surf trip planned and changed out flywheel back to charging. Boat went flat lean? WTH ?
Swapped flywheel back, boat went back to where it was. Again swapped back to charging., then rejetted . Jetted up a full point, performance was better yet!
In order for this to happen, CDI energy changed. Questioned Zeel and confirmed
CDI draws energy from charging side.
At the time I was running AGM type battery.
Results could be different with Lithium??
Did not test that.
Y62T is a full charging system and not able to run TL

P

 

[wiikstromm]

Here is how I discovered the charging benefit. Back when zeel was just becoming popular. I started my testing.
On my personal ski (surf T1, TPE 1021, spec 49’s, B /TnT ) as most of you know, im a tuning junkie. Anyone who ever climbed in my tray knows this. I setup the 02T zeel TL (760 version) tuned it mint. Had a surf trip planned and changed out flywheel back to charging. Boat went flat lean? WTH ?
Swapped flywheel back, boat went back to where it was. Again swapped back to charging., then rejetted . Jetted up a full point, performance was better yet!
In order for this to happen, CDI energy changed. Questioned Zeel and confirmed
CDI draws energy from charging side.
At the time I was running AGM type battery.
Results could be different with Lithium??
Did not test that.
Y62T is a full charging system and not able to run TL

P

Will this also happen to the new ms201 cdi?