Zeeltronic PDCIS A02T CDI Kawasaki wiring?

[ShreddinSD]

I recently purchased a Zeeltronic CDI for the Kawi 750 in my x2. I had been running the 6 or 7 degree advance plate with great luck till I swallowed some water and broke a ring. Now Im on to a fresh 1.5mm over top-end.( 750 SP, SBN44, ADA 26cc, FPP Limited, 2” TDR baffled w/b) I ran a full tank through following break in procedure with OE electronics and no timing advance. Time for some timing!! So I install my new Zeeltronic PDCIS A02T per the diagram it came with and…no spark when cranking….Lame. So I went back to OE with the timing advance- works as it should. So obviously I must have it wired wrong. Has anyone installed one and can tell me what I’m missing? After trying the paper diagram with no luck I found the other slightly different routing but same basic path and tried it with the same result. I don’t have a controller so I can’t do the spark test. Any help is greatly appreciated!

 

[JC-SuperJet]

The Photo with the Ground circled in Yellow: that Ground represents the Spark Plugs...

I'm guessing it also depends on your Kawasaki Ignition System. The Zeeltronic USUALLY only works on the OEM DC type Ignition Systems, meaning the Spark Energy normally comes straight from the BATTERY to the CDI, which is how DC Ignitions Systems work. Similar to how Total Loss Ignitions Systems work.

You probably have an AC Ignition System where the Spark Energy normally comes from the Stator Coil to the AC CDI. This AC CDI converts AC from the Stator Coil to DC. This CDI is not compatible with the Zeel AO2T. Even if you re-wired the CDI to the Battery. If this was all it took, we would have been slapping this CDI onto the Yamaha SuperJets.

This Zeel CDI is compatible with the DC 800 SXR Ignition Systems.

But the First Year Model of the 800 SXR came with an AC type System. The Zeel will not work on that Ignition System either.

What Zeeltronic advertises as a CDI for 750/800 is that the same Ignition Curves and Specs will work on both Engines, not the Ignition Systems. DC only!

 

[beerdart]

You have the trigger wired incorrect. The trigger is Green and Blue as noted on the diagram. On the zeel sheet L=Blue not purple.

 

[Storbeck]

The Photo with the Ground circled in Yellow: that Ground represents the Spark Plugs...

I'm guessing it also depends on your Kawasaki Ignition System. The Zeeltronic USUALLY only works on the OEM DC type Ignition Systems, meaning the Spark Energy normally comes straight from the BATTERY to the CDI, which is how DC Ignitions Systems work. Similar to how Total Loss Ignitions Systems work.

You probably have an AC Ignition System where the Spark Energy normally comes from the Stator Coil to the AC CDI. This AC CDI converts AC from the Stator Coil to DC. This CDI is not compatible with the Zeel AO2T. Even if you re-wired the CDI to the Battery. If this was all it took, we would have been slapping this CDI onto the Yamaha SuperJets.

This Zeel CDI is compatible with the DC 800 SXR Ignition Systems.

But the First Year Model of the 800 SXR came with an AC type System. The Zeel will not work on that Ignition System either.

What Zeeltronic advertises as a CDI for 750/800 is that the same Ignition Curves and Specs will work on both Engines, not the Ignition Systems. DC only!

This is incorrect, the zeel is compatible with all 750 electronics, the difference is on earlier ac powered OEM systems you just don't use the two wires that provided ac power to the cdi, and you power the zeel with battery power. The ignition timing trigger for all kawi 750/800 ignitions is compatible with the zeel and that's the only thing it needs from the OEM ignition system.

The reason why the ao2t isn't compatible with Yami 62t/61x or kawi 650 ignition systems is because they use a different trigger.

 

[ShreddinSD]

OK, I had it in retard mode… That is the catch I needed someone else to make! I realized the BL on the stock ground wire but when looking at the trigger I was thinking Violet to Lavender
I mean, it’s for a Kawasaki so why wouldn’t the colors match? I will give that a try. The thing that got me was that after learning about CDI’s and the lost spark system I fail to see how having one leg of the coil grounded is going to work. If you are depending on an arc between the ground and a spark plug electrode it is only going to happen on one electrode right? Electricity always chooses the path of less resistance. Like a split fire spark plug, you only get one spark. The OE CDI has two wires coming out that go to the coil, neither grounded. This makes sense to me as the current path would go from one spark plug electrode to the other using the engines head as a conductor. This makes sense. One question I had was whether the circled symbol in one picture was a ground or load. Thanks for answering that. I am sure the CDI will work as they have been around for quite a few years now. I just thought I would get a better answer faster here than I would with customer service and it looks like I did

Next question, are after about 20 minutes, once the engine is hot, when I pin it it gets to about 6000r s and sounds like I have a broken reed. it just falls on its face like blah. I don’t hear any pinging or anything before that and run 91 octane with octane booster. Does the booster work or do I need to spend an arm and a leg for race gas and cut it 50/50? Btw, My Ski was down for a long time and I got bored so I finger ported the case. I think that might be the problem because I altered the volume of the case. Sometimes I don’t know when to stop… Especially chasing horsepower. I wish now that I had a stock engine with a stock head. Preferably a cheap motor from a junk Ski that I could flog on without thinking twice.

 

[ShreddinSD]

Well, I wired correctly and get spark on both plugs. I’m done thinking. Anyway, thoughts on octane booster? I figured if alls I needs is to make fuel burn slower the additive would work for my application. That was when I was running timing advance with stock compression on a green top at 160psi- btw, the newer “OEM”brand gauges on Amazon for $30 have the same shrader valve as the Snap Ons that makes them so accurate

 

[Storbeck]

I'm not following all of this, but I can say in general octane booster does not work, octane is not an indication of how slow or fast the fuel burns (that's a wives tale), and if you are at 160psi with a anything that resembles a typical and well set up Kawasaki watercraft twin you do not need anything more than pump premium.

The typical kawasaki (or yamaha) oem coil for a twin has a small orange wire that hooks to the cdi to the coil, a small black wire that is grounded, and two big thick plug wires. The plug wires are what is depicted in the wiring diagram that you have circled in yellow (the diagram shows a single plug wire because it is a generic diagram for the zeeltronic cdi, to be completely correct for the watercraft there would be two of them in parallel. The gap between the two arrows on the diagram represents the spark plug gap, and then the spark plug is grounded so that is why the diagram shows that wire going through the spark plug gap and then to ground.

 

[ShreddinSD]

Right on, thanks. I thought that only one sp would spark wired this way but after wiring my CDI correctly it seems to be fine and firing both. I’ll stop wasting money on octane booster and start wasting it on av gas haha so, from this I’m gathering that once this engine is hot and falls on its face it may be due to too much compression and pinging? It doesn’t sound like pinging-It falls on its face like blah…I thought for sure it was reeds but went back to stock with the same result.

 

[Storbeck]

Right on, thanks. I thought that only one sp would spark wired this way but after wiring my CDI correctly it seems to be fine and firing both. I’ll stop wasting money on octane booster and start wasting it on av gas haha so, from this I’m gathering that once this engine is hot and falls on its face it may be due to too much compression and pinging? It doesn’t sound like pinging-It falls on its face like blah…I thought for sure it was reeds but went back to stock with the same result.

I have no idea what the issue you have is, I'm not entirely understanding what you are describing, I can only make the generic statements about a typical kawi 750 twin. Unless you have super weird porting or something very odd about your setup, or you are measuring compression in an unusual way, or something odd is going on in general, 160psi is in no way pushing pump gas safety. I've run a 780cc kawi twin with a wet pipe and a zeel at 190 psi with no trouble on 91 octane. You could kill a bone stock one with too much ignition advance or too lean or too much pump load or some combination but as a general rule, it doesn't sound like you have a problem with octane.

 

[fastgtfairlane]

what is your programming on your cdi set to? there are a few settings that youll need to establish to verify its set up properly.

trigger type- i believe the 750 flywheel has 2 triggers. this setting is for use on the 760 ignitions so you can use an unmodified 760 flywheel as it has 3 lumps. the older versions of the zeels for the 750/760s did not have this option.

static angle- this locates the sensor that tells the cdi when to send spark to the coil. it is in degrees. the 760 is at 56 degrees and the 750/800 is 47 degrees. if this is not set properly, your timing will be wayyyy off.

if either of those two settings are not correct, your zeel will not work correctly. youll need a cable and software on a computer to connect to the cdi. you also need 12v dc to the cdi to connect. the cable is a necessity for any diagnosis and changing the settings or ignition advance. just be sure to make sure your ebox stays completely dry. the ao2t cdis dont like moisture or leaky eboxs. the software download is free from the zeeltronic website.

 

[ShreddinSD]

Sweet. I believe I have the newest version of the a02t as I just got it this month. There’s a pic in the first post. I’m aware of how to set up the CDI but was hoping for plug and play with the two pre programmed curves. It looks like I’m spending another $80 on a programmer. I didn’t realize how deep I was getting into this. I just want to be able to hold it pinned for a couple seconds without worry on this new engine. I really only need it to hit hard bottom to mid range. 55 is too fast my x2(hooker 9/15)There are two triggers on the flywheel which I’m finding strange now, as a lost spark system would only require one right? I would think that the static angle is correct since this unit is specifically for a Kawasaki and they make a different module for the 62t now. But I would have also thought that they would use the correct colors if it’s specifically for kawis rather than having to refer to a color code key. This appears to be right(getting spark now) but I have not run the engine. I’m still on the fence about tearing it down to swap the upper case 1/2 and take my newb porting job out of the equation.

 

[ShreddinSD]

I never thought I had a problem with detonation until now. And I honestly think it’s my porting job and the change in case volume at this point. If it were only pinging it’d still be screaming till it popped right? It hits the wall at about 6000 rpm and sputters all over like it’s going to fall apart. It seems like a broken reed to me- but it’s not. I’m at 175psi now with the 26cc domes

 

[fastgtfairlane]

the a02t works for both the 760 64x yamaha and the kawi 750/800 as they both use a hall effect sensor. depending on where you purchased it, itll come pre programmed with the "wax" curve which will work fine, however typically theyre setup for a yamaha which uses a different static angle. it needs 2 lumps for the 2 cylinders but it fires both cylinders at the same time to be a wasted spark. if the trigger setting isnt right, the engine wont rev out. also if youre having detonation problems, the static angle being off can cause that as the timing would be 7 degrees off.

as for the compression, you cant go off the cranking compression psi. there are many many variables that come into play besides just the cc of the dome. your squish angle and clearance can play a part in this as well as the port timing. with the 750s it also depends on the cylinder youre using. the #20 (sx) or unmarked cylinder has the lowest port timing of the 750 cylinders and with 26cc domes and that cylinder, youre in the 100 octane level. i have a #20 cylinder with 26.5 domes and run a mix of 110 and 93 to get me to 100 octane to be safe. do you know what cylinder you have?

 

[ShreddinSD]

Casting says “22” I believe I have the 40 or 41mm ex port height of an early small pin. I think the bore is actually only .5 mm over where before I stated that they were 1.5mm. I’ve been reading some articles on group k and am starting to take into consideration the mass of bigger pistons and piston speed etc. pound for pound smaller engines seem to scream and I don’t think at this point that displacement is necessarily the place to look for power., maybe torque but hurting rpm. Although my next set of jugs are cut for 82.5 sxr pistons for the budget sxr800…yeah, I was guessing ballpark with port timing that the 26cc domes would make 180psi. That head will probably go on the next “800” now. I think I should have just had my stock head cut by group k but they’re getting expensive. I’m good with having to run 100 octane most of the time and got the zeel thinking I might switch between curves. But let’s face it, If it performs better with the extreme curve on 100 that’s what I’ll be running.

 

[beerdart]

Yamaha Kawasaki Polaris(650,750,780) and Seadoo twins are wasted spark 2 lobes single pick-up And not hall effect. 180 compression does not require any more that US 93 pump gas.

 

[ShreddinSD]

Awesome. Thanks for the info, I think I’m back on track! I can only get 91 at most pumps in San Diego but I’ve only got 175psi so I think I’ll be fine