Best twin carbs and manifold ? ?

[RiverRat]

what do blackjacks go for?
the 2k is with rad valves and manifold

On the manifold side of things I switched from old style R&D manifold w/ v-force reeds to the intake system that they use on sets of full spec 48's. I achually think the v-force gave me more power. However, the Rad valves seal better IMO. The v-force w/ the plastic cage and carbon reeds justhad a little bit of clearence between the cage and the reed petals. If they made v-force w/ an aluminum cage that would be nice. The M-16 set up is very nice as well but I can't justify dropping the bread on a new set of cages just for grins.

Here is a comparison I did: 44's vs 48mm Riva vs 48mm Full Specs: http://x-h2o.com/showthread.php?t=5088&highlight=riva+full+specs

 

[duckman1]

On the manifold side of things I switched from old style R&D manifold w/ v-force reeds to the intake system that they use on sets of full spec 48's. I achually think the v-force gave me more power. However, the Rad valves seal better IMO. The v-force w/ the plastic cage and carbon reeds justhad a little bit of clearence between the cage and the reed petals. If they made v-force w/ an aluminum cage that would be nice. The M-16 set up is very nice as well but I can't justify dropping the bread on a new set of cages just for grins.

Here is a comparison I did: 44's vs 48mm Riva vs 48mm Full Specs: http://x-h2o.com/showthread.php?t=5088&highlight=riva+full+specs

The m-16's produce about 12-14 less hp on a full SS compared to the V-force. (per Darrin Hedlund)The pro-tec mainifold with V-force and 48's are an awesome setup. The pro-tec manifold is one of the shortest on the market, thus higher intake signal, more low end. Reed spacers extend the length, and cause loss of signal, thus less low end. Why do people use them? I'm still trying to figure it out, they have also yet to save any of my reeds. The full specs are good carbs, but way too pricey. I still remember the day at WF's in '02 when Ed was telling me how Hedlund had no idea on how to set up carbs, my response, who's won more titles? Guessing there is a reason why all the major manufacturer's wanted Hedlund and not Ed...

 

[Matt_E]

Does Ed race personally?

Btw, 12-14HP seems quite substantial. Is this due to reed tension? I have a hard time picturing it has to do with intake tract length. I can see signal being different (or shorter, i.e. better, faster response).
I'm no carb expert....just wanting to learn something new here.

 

[FLY6584]

What manifold comes with that full spectrum setup if you just wanted to purchase the manifold separately? I'm guessing it's the R&D Dominator setup?

 

[michael950]

No, the Full Spec manifold is the Boyesen Extreme Velocity.

 

[RiverRat]

The m-16's produce about 12-14 less hp on a full SS compared to the V-force. (per Darrin Hedlund)The pro-tec mainifold with V-force and 48's are an awesome setup. The pro-tec manifold is one of the shortest on the market, thus higher intake signal, more low end. Reed spacers extend the length, and cause loss of signal, thus less low end. Why do people use them? I'm still trying to figure it out, they have also yet to save any of my reeds. The full specs are good carbs, but way too pricey. I still remember the day at WF's in '02 when Ed was telling me how Hedlund had no idea on how to set up carbs, my response, who's won more titles? Guessing there is a reason why all the major manufacturer's wanted Hedlund and not Ed...

Interesting.............and seems to be contingent with my experiences aswell.

 

[wildman326]

So, couldn't you just mill any intake down to get a better signal?

 

[#ZERO]

Reed spacers extend the length, and cause loss of signal, thus less low end. Why do people use them? I'm still trying to figure it out, they have also yet to save any of my reeds.

I think most people use reed spacer plates for installing longer reed cages and air filter clearance issues.

I would have to agree that you do lose some signal on the low end with the reed spacer plates installed not to mention more gaskets and possible air leaks.

 

[duckman1]

So, couldn't you just mill any intake down to get a better signal?

You also have carb spacing to contend with, as well as overall intake design. Milling does seem to help though, GroupK does this with the oem 44 manifold, not really sure what type of gains one will see with other designs .

The HP difference was with the reed assemblies, not the intake manifold. I have no idea what manifold Darrin was using, but with a quick call I can find out. Tim Vaughn of Novi fame directed me towards the Pro-tec, as well as 4" K&N's.

BTW, I am not saying Ed is an idiot, quite the contrary, I wish I knew a fraction of what he does. His "I know everything" attitude is what makes me shake my head, and roll my eyes.

 

[duckman1]

I think most people use reed spacer plates for installing longer reed cages and air filter clearance issues.

I would have to agree that you do lose some signal on the low end with the reed spacer plates installed not to mention more gaskets and possible air leaks.

A few builders will disagree with this, and I have no idea how they can refute the proof. But they do...Most will say, if set up properly, then some line of babble. I say if it's set up correctly, you don't need the freaking spacer, nor would you want to use it.

 

[SUPERTUNE]

If you use an reed spacer you need to consider the total package, how much to re-stuff the cases with epoxy to make back the lowered crankcase compression ratio, what is the overall length of the reed cage, what's your target RPM's your going to run the motor at, and what's your comfort level on reed petal life.
I use my own CNC'ed custom reed spacers for almost all of my engine builds. If done correctly they will help throttle response, better power delivery with straighter intake runners, and will provide exceptionally long reed petal life.

 

[Big Kahuna]

. im not knocking full specs. great carb just dont think there worth the money.i rode a handfull of skis with black jacks and full specs side by side i cant tell a difference and a 1000.00 differnce.mine hit hard right off throttle.not saying my carbs are better then fullspecs. but i wouldnt trade them for a set.

Are Blackjacks built for each setup like the F.S. are?? Or is every one of them the same?????

 

[the only couch rider]

Are Blackjacks built for each setup like the F.S. are?? Or is every one of them the same?????

thats what i was trying to say... the FS are ready to bolt on out of the box tailored for each application, there is no guess work on them and there is a very good chance you won't have to adjust the screw at all on them...


they must be ok....... Rius won a world championship on them this year

 

[nikad58]

Are Blackjacks built for each setup like the F.S. are?? Or is every one of them the same?????

Yes Art will try and set them up as close as he can, by the information you give him, which to me is scary thought with all the combinations of builders and aftermarket parts out there.. I think he charges around $175.00 each for his mods.. he has hit it on the button alot more than not for me.. but always in the ball park and close enough to fix it without feeling lost..

 

[Big Kahuna]

I remember when Tricky bought is first pair of Full Spec's, he called Ed about jetting, Ed asked who he got them from.......... Jason told him, Ed's response was, "One of the circuits on those cars is soldered closed, That guy was running a B Pipe, drill it out since you are running a Type 4 Dry Pipe......." After that, the jetting was just about dead on.

Personally, If I was buying, I dont know if I could spend that kind of money....
I have found that my 44's work just fine........ (especially since Chuckie did something to them......... not sure what!!!!!!!)

 

[2nd nature]

Are Blackjacks built for each setup like the F.S. are?? Or is every one of them the same?????

ive had 2 sets and both sets were set up for my skis. super clean crisp responce. my dual 46s im running on my stroker was it dead on it when done to arts specs. also never have to rejet or tune at the beach.

 

[Big Kahuna]

ok, cool

 

[RiverRat]

The m-16's produce about 12-14 less hp on a full SS compared to the V-force. (per Darrin Hedlund)The pro-tec mainifold with V-force and 48's are an awesome setup. The pro-tec manifold is one of the shortest on the market, thus higher intake signal, more low end. Reed spacers extend the length, and cause loss of signal, thus less low end. Why do people use them? I'm still trying to figure it out, they have also yet to save any of my reeds. The full specs are good carbs, but way too pricey. I still remember the day at WF's in '02 when Ed was telling me how Hedlund had no idea on how to set up carbs, my response, who's won more titles? Guessing there is a reason why all the major manufacturer's wanted Hedlund and not Ed...

When I was doing my testing w/ the full spec carbs and riva carbs I just realized from that picture that the RAD valves on my intake set up are RAD-131-R w/ a dual stage reed petal (carbon and glass) vs the 3 stage glass petals shown in the above picture. The reed cages that now come on the Full Spec set-ups are RAD-131-A. The reed tension of the petals may contribute the the loss in low end performance I noticed on my particular setup. I am going to see if I can get intouch with Ed from Full Spec to see what performance advantages the 131-A has over the 131-R, or if the LT 3 petal design is available for the 131-R cages. I honestly think that this may solve the loss of lowend performance I was noticing b/c the petals on my boat are pretty stiff.

 

[egbrig]

I spent a couple of days with Ed and he took me to Boyesen to see the facility. Let me tell you, there is more time spent on the airflow bench and dyno than you can imagine. They have everyone elses reeds, manifolds ect. there to compare with and all the stats on each part. Boyesen's air flow bench is the most powerful in the country. They went and modified a superflow 1200 to make it even stronger just to see more closely what happens inside the carb/engine. The Boyesen reed/manifold is by far the best and the reeds will last much longer than any other design and makes more power, they have tested this. You would not believe the amount of reed designes they go through just to get to the finalized version. Boyesen makes all there parts themselves and has the highest quality of any. Ed's carbs are the most expensive but you will get what you pay for and you'll get him on the phone to answer questions.

 

[sjetrider]

When I was doing my testing w/ the full spec carbs and riva carbs I just realized from that picture that the RAD valves on my intake set up are RAD-131-R w/ a dual stage reed petal (carbon and glass) vs the 3 stage glass petals shown in the above picture. The reed cages that now come on the Full Spec set-ups are RAD-131-A. The reed tension of the petals may contribute the the loss in low end performance I noticed on my particular setup. I am going to see if I can get intouch with Ed from Full Spec to see what performance advantages the 131-A has over the 131-R, or if the LT 3 petal design is available for the 131-R cages. I honestly think that this may solve the loss of lowend performance I was noticing b/c the petals on my boat are pretty stiff.

I asked Ed that very question. His response was "you are wasting the FS carbs and New Boyeson Mnfld running the 131-R reeds" He also said they are manufactured to run together and that one without the other is a waste. I still run the 131-R's in the new MNFLD w/ 48mm FS carbs as I cannot bring myself to pay that much for reeds. Mine runs good, as good? Dont know haven't the $200.00 plus reeds yet.