Blaster Electrical problem is making my brain hurt... Help please! (PROBLEM FOUND)

[retroicon]

Hey all,

Alright, here's what's up, and what I know to be working...

First off, this is a 62t electrical system for a yamaha 701. Just to make sure we're all on the same page.

The problem is that my starter won't spin. I'm not concerned about spark, or timing, or anything else right now, I just want to get my starter spinning. Again, I don't care about spark... one step at a time.

The parts involved are:

New Battery - charged and working.
New Coil - New from JSS.
New MSD Enhancer - Brand new from box.
New positive & negative cables
New Start/Stop Switch
Used Relay - 2 different ones (don't assume yet!)

Now I've already eliminated the start/stop switch from the equation. It's not connected, and I'm manually jumping the brown/red wires to attempt to spin the starter. Also, the black/white part of the stop/start switch isn't connected either.

So I'm manually jumping the red/brown wires to attempt to spin the starter... please don't say to check the switch.

I know the starter works, and the battery is sufficiently charged to spin it because if I manually jump/short the two posts on the relay, the starter DOES spin properly.

So, the starter works for sure, and the battery is charged enough to spin it for sure. Both of those aren't the issue.

As I said, if I manually jump the 2 posts on the relay, the starter spins. This is the case with both of the 2 used relays I've attempted so far. To the best of my knowledge, both were working when pulled... but at this point I don't know what else it could be.

It's my understanding that, even if the coil was bad, and the enhancer was bad, the fact that I have all the positive/red cables connected together in the e-box, none of that should have any impact on the starter spinning when the red/brown wires are manually shorted to mimic pressing the start button.

And yes, before you ask, I've also eliminated the fuse as a potential problem... the fuse isn't in-line right now, I bypassed the fuse by removing it entirely, and just connecting the two ends of the red wire to each other, leaving the fuse sitting in my tray.

So... could I really have 2 bad starter relays?

The other thing I tried is unplugging the brown cable from the relay, and touching it to one of the terminals on the relay itself, and that spins the starter as well...

I'm just as a loss here.

The starter spinning, as I understand it, should be happening no matter what else could be wrong in the e-box, with the exception of the relay. If the enhancer was bad, shouldn't matter. If the coil was bad, shouldn't matter. If the switch was bad, that's not going to matter because it's not connected...

Is there anything I'm missing?

-Gary

 

[agua]

have you checked the plug that goes from the box up to the starter?

 

[retroicon]

there are 2 cables on the starter. the positive cable from the relay, and the negative cable that goes direct to the battery... i'm not sure what you're referring to.

 

[agua]

oh, you jumped the wire from the SS in the box itself, that would eliminate the plug i was talking about

plug to the switch ^^^** sorry

 

[davy87nj]

http://www.pwcforums.co.uk/superjet-wiring-diagram_topic35976.html
Check out this wiring diagram. Im good with automotive diagrams, but the stop switch is throwing me off on this diagram, dont quite understand how the switch opens and closes. bust out a meter and see if your gettin power and ground to the control side of the relay when the switch is jumped or pressed, black and brown wires from that diagram.

 

[retroicon]

i'm not sure how I'd do that when all the wires are connected... there aren't any bare surfaces to put the meter on. It's all covered by the wire sleeve, or rubber over the nuts holding the wires to the relay at those 2 points.

 

[retroicon]

Figured I'd update this post in case anyone is searching at a later date, and has a similar problem... I found the issue.

The 2 positive cables that go to the relay, one from the battery, and one from the starter...

One of the 2 cables has a red/positive lead coming off of it, and that cable should be going to the battery... I had that cable going to the starter instead.

Basically, the larger battery sized cable with the lead coming off of it should be connected to the left side of the relay, if you're looking at it with the brown and black wires coming off the bottom.

I had it hooked up with the cable with the lead coming off the right side of the relay, which is the correct side to go to the starter, but the cable with the lead shouldn't be going to the starter, the cable with the lead should be going to the battery... damn it!

This probably isn't an issue for most people, but if you're getting aftermarket cables, re-using cables, or the secondary clear tubing isn't on your cables anymore... make sure you have those hooked up properly. If you hook them up backwards, you get no starter.

To clarify.

\/\/ THIS IS THE CORRECT WAY - WITH WIRES COMING FROM BOTTOM OF RELAY \/\/

Cable with lead should go on the left side of relay (nearest brown wire), which is connected to the battery.
Cable without lead should go on the right side of the relay (nearest black wire), which is connected to the starter.

Now I'm going to have to pull my whole damn exhaust off to change the cables around, but at least I found the problem.

-G

 

[aramis]

ummm...I'd keep looking, since relay output terminals (battery/starter) don't have polarity. Only the input (small wire) terminals do. You disturbed / changed something else that made it work.

 

[agua]

the cables were mixed up, the coming from the batter was hooked to the starter side

 

[score602]

You have 2 bad starter soleniods end of story....it happens lol

 

[score602]

Ops missed that last post

 

[davy87nj]

Good find, glad you found it.

 

[Matt_E]

ummm...I'd keep looking, since relay output terminals (battery/starter) don't have polarity. Only the input (small wire) terminals do. You disturbed / changed something else that made it work.

Yes, they don't have polarity. But if the +12V supply to the relay control (and CDI, etc) is connected to the "wrong" side, then the relay never gets control power.

 

[retroicon]

the cables were mixed up, the coming from the batter was hooked to the starter side

well, not exactly... the cables were mixed up, but they weren't mixed in the "easy" way where you just have them going to the wrong side of the relay.

The battery side was hooked up to the battery, and the starter side was hooked up to the starter... both cables were running from the relay, to where they should have been running.

The problem is, the cable with the lead coming off of it, that goes in-line with the fuse, start/stop button, etc... that cable with the lead was on the starter side, when it should have been on the battery side.

So the starter was hooked up to the correct side of the relay, battery hooked up to the correct side of the relay, but I had the two cables themselves mixed up... the one with the lead was running to the starter, and the one without the lead was running to the battery.

Did that make sense?

 

[retroicon]

Good find, glad you found it.

Thanks man. It was really making my head hurt trying to figure out what the hell was wrong...

I was looking at going. Ok, the cables are to the battery, and the starter properly, they're on the correct side of the relay... what's going on.

Turns out that lead was on the right side of the relay though... and that basically meant that the relay would remain open, instead of closing the circuit and sending juice to the starter as it should.

 

[augustaf]

No, #14 post does not make sense to me. The bat cable has the short 20 ga lead which powers relay and enhancer if used (also connects the reg.). It does not matter to which of the relay posts you connect this cable.

 

[aramis]

I've got it now...as I said, it does not matter which output terminals of the relay go where...there is no polarity for the fat cables.

...but, the cable that ties to the inline fuse has to go to back to the battery +, not to the starter!

He had the battery lead (and fuse) connected to the starter...meaning no juice, ever, for the solenoid coil to pull the output contacts closed.

The wording (or possible confusion on the OP's part about the way relays / solenoid coils work) threw me off...he was talking about where on the relay it was connected, when he needed to be looking at the other end!

 

[agua]

Yep, that made sense, did you have the pipe on? its not easy to get the starter wire off with it on lol

 

[retroicon]

No, #14 post does not make sense to me. The bat cable has the short 20 ga lead which powers relay and enhancer if used (also connects the reg.). It does not matter to which of the relay posts you connect this cable.

That's the issue, yes... it does.

If you have the 20 ga lead coming off of the relay, on the side that's hooked up to the starter... unless the relay is closed (power flowing) then the enhancer and the rest of the electrical system wouldn't get any power. If it's hooked up to the side of the relay (which happens to be the right when looking at it with the brown/black cables facing down), then when you press the start button, the relay is open, and nothing happens because you're not closing the circuit by either pressing the start button, or manually shorting the brown/red wires that you'd have hooked up to the start/stop switch.

The side with the 20 gauge lead must be on the side connected to the battery, which would be the left side of the relay, if you're looking at it with the brown/black cables off the relay being oriented at the bottom.

I'll snap a picture of the relay tonight, and my "rig" fix that clearly shows the problem... apparently mine isn't the only mind being blown by this issue.

-G

 

[retroicon]

Yep, that made sense, did you have the pipe on? its not easy to get the starter wire off with it on lol

Oh yeah, the pipe is on... I came up with a fix for it though. I'll snap a picture tonight.

Basically I created a short lead with a ring terminal on one end, and a butt connector on the other end, and kind of manually connected the lead from the battery into the electrical system, instead of plugging it into the lead that's coming off of the positive cable from the factory.

I'll have an open butt connector coming off one terminal of the relay, kind of like what you get with the pink wire that you'd normally have hooked up to the heat sensor in the head... but this is a better solution than pulling the pipe, waterbox, etc.