Free ride vs freestyle vs race engine

tntsuperjet

Tntperformance-engineering.com
Location
Georgetown ca
I have scene this go round and round and people say I don't want that it's a race engine I'm a free ride guy.
Race engines are tuned to get the most power from what ever power plant you choose to start with so a free ride or freestyle engine needs to be more low end orientated.
News flash. Nothing could be further from the truth. ( from here on FS and FR will mean same.

What a free ride boats need is the most possible power without all the tuning headaches of a full race built motor.
They dont need more bottom more hit or even more tq.
Race motor is built to have te most tq and hp and rev as high as possible.
Now I can turn the most radical race motor into a stunning free ride motor without changing anything in port design shape or timing.
Turning a race motor into a free ride motor is all in setup, race motor full weight crank for best rpm, free ride lighten the crank and lightest possible flywheel, longer tune dimension pipe and shorter prop. Abra cadabra your race motor is now a freeride motor.
You say you want a pump gas free ride vs a race gas.
Now we have to change some engine design as the cyl pressures are to high and detonation will be a problem so we have to detune the engine some to lower cyl pressure so we can control fuel burn and reduce detonation.
You will find a lot of motors built for free ride that have 200 deg exhaust ports.
To put that into perspective of how high 200 deg really is.
Some of the best high reving 2 strokes revved 14,000 rpm with 205 deg exh ports. So another words that's road race port timing for extremely high rpm.
Now water craft have there hand stuck in the cookie jar with wet pipes and people are finding that high port timing they rev higher and it's become more common to have ports that high in watercraft. There tricking te pipe by allowing more hot gasses to escape and it shortens the tune length of the pipe
I can tell you my engines do not have exh ports over 197 deg at the highest and my super jet turns 8050rpm and hits hard enough to get huge air off the smallest of wakes with Solas k prop 82mm nozzle and stock 144pump stock intake in the hull no stuffer.
My rpm come from pipe design and setup
So now for bottom. Some think that if they pull the throttle 1/4 that's low end power some think low end give them back flip ability.
A motor with a lot of low end will hit hard pulling throttle quickly to 1/4 throttle from idle, as low ports will trap pressure with the slightest increase in ingested volume. Taller ported motor will need more intake volume to trap equally with taller ports as the higher ports will allow for more volume to escape through the exhaust port there for require more vomume to be ingested into the motor to get the same response.
That being said the motor that has the best average hp from 3500-7k will feel the best for free ride.
4000-7500 will feel better for race.
One motor design can accomplish both of those with just basic setup differences, pipe, prop, timing, head shape and squish. You an also do long rod setup for more low mid tq as longer rod will increase piston TDC dwell time
 
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I wish I knew half of what you know about our engines. All I know is that my favorite engines I've rode hit in the midrange which I feel makes them feel very linear especially since I like to ride between 10 and 25 mph while freeriding.
 

tntsuperjet

Tntperformance-engineering.com
Location
Georgetown ca
It's really not hard to move power around on most engines. Flywheel weight head design squish clearance and pipe temp can accomplish amazing things.
Let's just say this.
If you have exp port 195-202 total duration
Transfer ports from 128-133 total duration.
That could be made into just about any application for riding or racing with simple head, prop, pipe and timing changes.
 

DAG

Yes, my balls tickled from that landing
Location
Charlotte, NC
I think we first have to understand better what low end power is and how it's defined. It's hard for me to agree with "Low end power is 1/4 throttle?" And here's why.

FS guys 1/4 throttle blipping to make setup wakes and I'm sure none of them could flip if they placed a block behind the throttle lever only allowing the butterfly to open 22.5 degrees.


I think even the dumbest kid on the forums would agree 1/4 throttle opening does not equal 1/4 of the power. Low end power might take 65 degrees or more of the butterfly's to open.


To me low end power is 100% time based. AKA how fast does the entire tuned setup becomes most "efficient" regardless of factors like butterfly position.


Other than where I'm confused on what some call low end power a lot of great info in this thread. Looking forward to learning a few things and seeing what others can add.
 

link

LFR
Location
oz
It's really not hard to move power around on most engines. Flywheel weight head design squish clearance and pipe temp can accomplish amazing things.
Let's just say this.
If you have exp port 195-202 total duration
Transfer ports from 128-133 total duration.
That could be made into just about any application for riding or racing with simple head, prop, pipe and timing changes.

I wish I had a long arm (im in Oz) so I could shake your hand.....

This is the difference between great drivelines and the rest, set up for what YOU have done properly and this info is not online, its time spent setting up what YOU have, then testing and tuning on water.

Most people I build for are amazed how the same gear runs when you take the time to put it together properly and tune it to suit the rider, hull and for their intended use.
 

tntsuperjet

Tntperformance-engineering.com
Location
Georgetown ca
Here my best advice.
If your pipe makes power 4,000-7700rpm then everything you do, port timing, head squish ratio, squish angle, squish clearance, ignition timing and prop should all work best at those RPM's.
Those who setup there packages best matched in those areas WIN!!!
 

BruceSki

Formerly Motoman25
Location
Long Island
Oh c'mon. Guy builds a few pipes and now he's a genius?





Lol j/k. Who ruffled your feathers to get you to make this thread?

I can agree with your main points though. I've ridden a few strokers, stock stroke big bores, 701's, 650's. I can roll a 650 in surf no problem and will attempt to flip one next season just for giggles. I think pipe tuning, water(cooling) tuning, pump tuning, carb tuning and compression make a big difference from one setup to another. I'm going to mess with an unknown ported cylinder next season too.

Anyhow I'm subscribed just to see the drama that unfolds with this one.
 
Location
dfw
It's really not hard to move power around on most engines. Flywheel weight head design squish clearance and pipe temp can accomplish amazing things.
Let's just say this.
If you have exp port 195-202 total duration
Transfer ports from 128-133 total duration.
That could be made into just about any application for riding or racing with simple head, prop, pipe and timing changes.
It is easy to make great power with that timing. For smaller engines, getting good response with pump gas and stock ignitions can be very challenging. I always end up flattening out an impeller.
 

holeshot

HPE products
Location
ca
Cool conversation. I agree you can change powerband characteristics dramatically with pipe design.
But high port timing is a necessary evil when it comes to rpm. And it comes with compromises. High exhaust port means shorter powerstroke. High transfer timing means shorter intake stroke. those higher timings should be used with a longer blowdown period. All of that equates to less low to midrange power even if you pipe it to come on earlier than a motor without excess timing for the rpm its running. Just trying to be part of the conversation politely.
 

tntsuperjet

Tntperformance-engineering.com
Location
Georgetown ca
I think we first have to understand better what low end power is and how it's defined. It's hard for me to agree with "Low end power is 1/4 throttle?" And here's why.

FS guys 1/4 throttle blipping to make setup wakes and I'm sure none of them could flip if they placed a block behind the throttle lever only allowing the butterfly to open 22.5 degrees.


I think even the dumbest kid on the forums would agree 1/4 throttle opening does not equal 1/4 of the power. Low end power might take 65 degrees or more of the butterfly's to open.


To me low end power is 100% time based. AKA how fast does the entire tuned setup becomes most "efficient" regardless of factors like butterfly position.


Other than where I'm confused on what some call low end power a lot of great info in this thread. Looking forward to learning a few things and seeing what others can add.
Exactly my point. To many people on here think low end is what they need. You go into mod range power even at 1/4 throttle.
Example even if you have a 50 lbs bad it still not gonna send a baseball far if you bunt. Doesn't matter what size the batt is with no follow through it's just a big ass bat!!
 
@holeshot and i may differ by a few degrees on what is optimal for our watercraft port timing. And i agree 100 percent that pipe tuning, squish clearance, among other tuning variables make a huge difference. But to say a 200 degree exhaust with no power valve will have as much off idle power as the same displacement and cylinder design engine with 180 deg ish exhaust timing is a bit bold. But then again id say alot of people deal with set ups that are not tuned at all so........
 

holeshot

HPE products
Location
ca
I guess it all comes down to how much pump pressure you make, and how long it takes to get to that pressure when the throttle is wacked open from low rpm. Thats where people form an opinion if the motor has strong low to mid or pulls great up top.
motor guys tend to develop their engines with the most common pipe being used by customers. Pipe guys try to get the most out of the most common engine set up. i dont design pipes, but ive had a hell of a lot of fun riding thanks to pipe designers.
 

holeshot

HPE products
Location
ca
@holeshot and i may differ by a few degrees on what is optimal for our watercraft port timing. And i agree 100 percent that pipe tuning, squish clearance, among other tuning variables make a huge difference. But to say a 200 degree exhaust with no power valve will have as much off idle power as the same displacement and cylinder design engine with 180 deg ish exhaust timing is a bit bold. But then again id say alot of people deal with set ups that are not tuned at all so........

Clear your inbox.
 

waxhead

wannabe backflipper
Location
gold coast
I'm a 196 degree with 128 degree transfer guy. The trick is getting the transfers to flow right and aimed in the right direction. The bad exhaust port in the 61x means you have to run higher durations to get the right blowdown time/area. A tpe with a better exhaust would have the same blowdown area/time with a lower exhaust.
 

waxhead

wannabe backflipper
Location
gold coast
If you don't have enough blowdown then you end up stalling the transfers when they open as the pressure is greater in the cylinder than the transfer tunnel. If your getting black soot in your transfers it's a clear sign you don't have enough blowdown. These bad transfers need as much help as they can
 
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