Freestyle Freestyle $$$ sport?

[Vumad]

They all say made in America on the side.

Besides... Add up the prices...

Pfp $1500
Carbs $1500
Intake and reeds $800
Prop $300
Mag pump $1500
Fuel tank $200
Total loss $1500

I'm at $7300 and haven't even listed a part xscream produces yet.

Carbon is $75/yard, hand laid by very skilled American workers, with huge investments into the designs, with very few people buying them (compared to a corvette).

A used sbt 701 will run you $800. A new mass produced 701 will cost you about $4000. A new xs1000 will cost you about $1000, and can't be mass produced because not enough people want it, and even of they did, they still hand work every motor to perform.

I really think what you should be asking is why a mass produced cast 701 motor cost so much.

What I want to know is how the little tiny retaining screw that holds the plate that holds the seat of the needle and seat I my mikuni carb costs $8 to replace. Or why when my throttle return spring on my superjet broke I was told they don't sell new throttle return springs, to buy a new carb.

I have lots of pricing questions in this sport, but ive neveruch wondered how a top performig boat can cost only 3times what a stock boat does. I really don't fell the am builders are "gouging because they can." I certainly wish I could get into NASCAR or Indy for 3times the price of a corvette. I mean if we're going to compare apples, lets not paint an orange red and use it as an example.

 

[Vumad]

Corvette is the superjet of the street.

If we want to compare stock to pro-level flat water freestyle boats, lets start dropping names like ferarri, Bugatti, and so far.

3 times vs 20 times... Jet skis look pretty damn reasonable.

 

[jetpilot808]

I gave up on the big items, like you guys said, supply demand. But I do wonder about some of the smaller items, some of the gas caps....$60, the carbon chinpads...$200-$300, or the RRP ebox housing that was on here....$400. I don't remember the exact prices, but wow. uke:

 

[swapmeet]

All of that stuff is the equivilant of putting custom wheels on your car. Why put 3 piece wheels that cost 4k on a civic thats worth 3? So you can be that guy... .

 

[masterblaster]

Just some thoughts.

flat water freestyle is a niche sport that requires very specialized and incredibly high quality components. And the OEM's never developed boats for this market or really cared about growing that side of the sport.

Thankfully there have been a hand full of people who decided they could do things better and they took it upon themselves to innovate and develop better products. And some of those guys are even able to make a living building these parts, which is nice because they will continue to innovate and build more and better parts.

What is even better is that in our society, if you think you can do it better or cheaper, no one will stop you. " If you really can do it better or cheaper you win. "

The bottom line is that the market dictates prices.

But a stock boat is pretty damn capable. And handling wise a pre 08 SJ set up properly is one of my all time favorites...I would like a little nose rocker though.

If you want to be a competitive rider in flatwater you will have to spend some serious $$ because the boat and motor package are so much of that sport. I still think freeride can be done very well at a very high level with reasonably priced equipment.

All very valid points,I couldnt agree more. Freeride is becoming a little less of a niche sport,Its more obtainable for the average guy,because it can be done on a much closer to stock ski.Thusly its growing at much faster rate. The flip side is Freestyle doesnt really need to be as expensive as it is.Not eveyone "needs" a pro level competition ready ski..Some of the guys I see building skis to this level that cant do much else than a backflip,leave one to wonder.whats was the real point there?
To that point.. the feedback I get is your average guy wants a lighter ski that has a powerful reliable motor thats not setup on the ragged edge that is fun for surf and will be capable to flatwater backflip .This doesnt require the need for a 7 to 10k carbon hull or a 8 to 10k motor to do this. There will be a close to rtr ski coming out this yr that will fit this demand for a realistic budget,close to cutting this price literally in half. As Ross said,if the market demands it.... At these price points,many more people will be able to obtain it.working closer to a mass market product inside the #s that exists now,not to mention the future

so far as billet cases and cylinders go,again they dont have to be,its just whats being offered in the market right now...anyone ever seen the prices on the banshee setups,rather your talking billet or cast....


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As Far as cranks go,The market is changin there also,We are gettin more choices at better price points and FAR better turn around times than days past. Cranks are fairly complex in mass production. In order to get strokers better priced Their parts have been manufactured over seas,and being built here in the states to the same precise specs.Billet webs are no more important than making a cylinder from billet. Hammer forging is far stronger. The real issue with cranks for yrs now has been the type rods used on them. Many of the long rods used on 8mill plus cranks were never designed to be used in motors this powerful. IF a crank has very good alloy like 8620 and is Trued & welded and uses oem koyo bearings its going to last and run longer between maintenance cycles if taken care of..As well as have less chance of grenading a big $ motor.


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[linden]

compared to other things i get into modding i think skis arent that bad i built a pretty solid sj with a jetworks motor for around 5k yet i had over 5k in just the stereo of my last truck its all pretty relative imo

 

[wsuwrhr]

I do a billet Banshee case too.

 

[Ross_C]

"There will be a close to rtr ski coming out this yr that will fit this demand for a realistic budget,close to cutting this price literally in half." From: masterblaster


That is exciting news, and one step closer to mainstreaming the sport.

 

[Pro-pulsion]

I see what you're saying but if the pipe just needs a little buffing or paint to look good and still functions 100% and you can get it $200-250 cheaper than new, it's still a good deal.

x2! Absolutely deftons56, 200-250 less than new is what I would consider a deal for the variables you brought out. I agree fully with you on your point. I was actually thinking about this on my way home a few minutes ago. I would always consider a b-pipe as a good deal for around the 500-550 price tag when all it needs is a little spit-shine and paint. I was thinking more along the lines of when I have seen them get put up for between 600 and 695 with a few seasons use and either look like a dog's breakfast that the dog returned 2 hours after eating it, are dented or banged up, missing lord mounts or hardware that may have came with the pipe when new, or needs new couplers and requires a couple of hours of repair for seized screws and trashed threads, but priced at between 10 and 20% less than new. It just seems to me that the condition, age and use should reflect the price rather than the company who made it. It kind of follows suit with the Toyota syndrome, as long as it says Toyota on it, it holds value regardless of condition. Unfortunately the Toyota dealer told me that my idea of slapping their logo and some Tundra decals over top of the ones on my F150 wasn't going to do anything to help the trade-in value. So I labeled it with SuperJet decals instead

 

[Asmbandits]

Wow Ive been busy and my pc had a problem for the last few days so I wasnt able to get on for two days but im greatfull for all the input! For the record I have been in the sport for about 4-5 years, my account here is fresh but been on pwctoay for a while when I started with the 440/550s like most do. I get everything everyone is saying, and the more I think/read about it I can see the reality of it all.. The next step for me is AM hull, so im at the point to see/justify if my lifestyle can support that without lossing my wife and house lol..

Ive always been pretty "crafty" or atleast id like to think, by low sell high kinda guy like most of you, but this next level does not support that lol..

I think ill finish out this season on my fx1, it will do a lot for what it is but you just have to have the balls and push a little harder than id like to.

As for the "corvette" comment, I never said anything about new, I know you cant find one new for $30k but you can find a very nice used one for that or cheaper, simply using that as an example.

 

[masterblaster]

Ross...mainstreaming is really what we would like to see. i know some people complain they dont want to see that happen,but it makes no sense. If standup skis an all respects become more main stream,manufactures will sell more product in turn increasing competition in the market as well as the need for far more to be produced,this will reduce cost to the end user.Other larger sponsors outside our market would eventually get involved and some of our best athletes would be able to make a living at the sport they live for rather than deplete themselves of alot of $ and put them selves at risk for no monetary reward

Brian..post some pics of them id like to see them as well..These are really pretty.Im addressing the general complaint that freestyle is too expensive..While it can be if you buy the pro level everything,I just dont think the average rider needs all these things..IT can still be done for much cheaper if the desire to do so is the true genuine purpose,and nothing more.

 

[wsuwrhr]

I sold my last set a couple years ago. I'll see if I can dig up some hard drive pictures. I actually taught myself 3D programming doing them. The cases you pictured are Matton's, mine were an easy 5 lbs lighter as I made them more like the factory case contours and mine have much more defintion than mattons.

Later, I did a hybrid set that used two Honda 250R cylinders and spaced the cylinders farther apart. Pretty trick for the day, too bad the market dried up for Banshee stuff.

I still love mine.

Brian

Ross...mainstreaming is really what we would like to see. i know some people complain they dont want to see that happen,but it makes no sense. If standup skis an all respects become more main stream,manufactures will sell more product in turn increasing competition in the market as well as the need for far more to be produced,this will reduce cost to the end user.Other larger sponsors outside our market would eventually get involved and some of our best athletes would be able to make a living at the sport they live for rather than deplete themselves of alot of $ and put them selves at risk for no monetary reward

Brian..post some pics of them id like to see them as well..These are really pretty.Im addressing the general complaint that freestyle is too expensive..While it can be if you buy the pro level everything,I just dont think the average rider needs all these things..IT can still be done for much cheaper if the desire to do so is the true genuine purpose,and nothing more.

 

[masterblaster]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/400339836557

Mattoon makes some pretty cool stuff,Ive talked to them about doing some other stuff I was interested in as well. The banshe is a beast and pretty much endless capabilities for power,the new spread bores they use are pretty sick..some of those same strategies lend themselves well to pwc motors as well. alot be learned from avt and sled tech. With the right crank connection,some of these spread bores can make ski motors WAY more capable on separate twin cylin setups..

 

[wsuwrhr]

I posted another thread with the cases to not muck this one up

 

[wsuwrhr]

..some of those same strategies lend themselves well to pwc motors as well. alot be learned from avt and sled tech. With the right crank connection,some of these spread bores can make ski motors WAY more capable on separate twin cylin setups..

I don't understand what you are saying here.

 

[Wes K]

Just some thoughts.

I think the point has been beaten in to the ground, but flat water freestyle is a niche sport that requires very specialized and incredibly high quality components. And the OEM's never developed boats for this market or really cared about growing that side of the sport.

Thankfully there have been a hand full of people who decided they could do things better and they took it upon themselves to innovate and develop better products. And some of those guys are even able to make a living building these parts, which is nice because they will continue to innovate and build more and better parts.

What is even better is that in our society, if you think you can do it better or cheaper, no one will stop you. If you really can do it better or cheaper you win.

The bottom line is that the market dictates prices.

Also, Wes not to crap on your point...but stock boats are really pretty fun in the surf with some handling mods and reinforcement. The pics below were of the boat I did the first SuperFlip on. Stock motor, stock pipe, stock pump, stock prop. It was an 08 or 09 SuperJet. Of course you have to do the handling mods, and turf, and replace the parts that would other wise break. But a stock boat is pretty damn capable. And handling wise a pre 08 SJ set up properly is one of my all time favorites...I would like a little nose rocker though.

I was having a blast on the $3k boat I bought from a forum member a few months ago till I took it down to replace some of the drive line parts.

I think the bottom line is that as far as motor sports go, bang for the buck can be pretty good. It's not motocross good, but it sure hurts less. If you want to be a competitive rider in flatwater you will have to spend some serious $$ because the boat and motor package are so much of that sport. And even though there are lots of high dollar boats floating around in the surf these days, I still think freeride can be done very well at a very high level with reasonably priced equipment.

Ross, I was saying it is impossible to be competitive at a professional level in flatwater. I totally agree that stock boats are fun in the surf. You have seen my boat... nothing but a b pipe and tubbies, and I love it! It is an awesome boat and I have done great on it and have even won heats against riders on $20k skis with huge motors, aftermarket hulls, etc.

 

[Tanman]

Freestyle is a crazy amount of money, but for the few companies that can build motors and hulls that are world class products, it has taken them years and hundreds of thousands of dollars to fine tune. So they deserve to get their money back and grow as a company. The products are expensive but the engines and hulls and parts in this industry just happened in the last 3 years practically. Overtime it will calm down. Think of how cheap 440 race parts are now... if you can find them, no big deal. It will take time. And having rode some of the baddest skis in the world "Rok's finals winning XFS Ninja" not everyone needs something even near the price tag of $35,000. and even a $25,000 ski is nuts when you get right down too it. But you can do fine with less riding skis like a BOB or whatever. Just depends on what your desire is. I like quality, strong, easy to ride stuff that is new and doesn't break down alot oh shoot sorry i forgot we were talking jetskis. Well anyhow, I think after a few years you'll see some prices drop but this isn't your standard engines or anything anymore. This is still impressive gnarly stuff. Unless there was a market to sell 10,000 world wide a year then it could not be mass produced feasably. Just what im thinkin

 

[garrcass]

This is not really freestyle but in the 90's a brand new x2 cost about 4000-5000..

Over the last year I spent about $5000 to buy parts to build a x2 that has almost not a single stock part on it and a fully ported 750 with SXR bottom, ninja c4, advent... yada yada yada.




The real answer to the OP is just....

(Supply and demand) should have learned that in 12th grade

 

[TheBuzzard]

you cant go backwards. you cant go from an sxr back to a 650. you cant go from a kawi to a superjet, then back to a kawi. you cant go back to a roundnose after you've had an AM hull. you cant go from a ported modified 701 back to a bone stock 701 powerplant. those of us that know this, realize that as we move forward with technology, power and trick $hit, it puts you on another level and then another. with these level changes come price increases. THE PRICE OF FUN IS HIGH! i live by that and am good with it. you cant put a price on your individual joy.sometimes i wished i didnt know now what i didnt know then.

 

[Asmbandits]

Sorry, we didnt talk about the dynamics of supply and demand in the freestyle jet ski market at my high school, that would have been a nice change.. I came here to discuss as we have been and it seems fitting being a pwc forum..