indoor jetski waterpark.

the WaTeRhAwK

fryin' up a/m electrics..
Location
okc
so where exactly in those diagrams is the "extraction" happening?

no where does it mention the pipe extracting/drawing exhaust away.

are you the guy on the car forum who was building the turbo that returned the exhaust into the carb that was gonna have infinite rpms?



do a search on how expansion chambers tune and increase a two stroke engines performance, you will have your "extraction" question answered in detail.

the negative pressure created within the chamber from the combustion releases' sound wave, draws a/f mixture into the cylinders faster than it would if the motor was just utilizing a straight pipe. it also "scavenges" the excess fuel flowing into the chamber that is unburned, and "stuffs" it back into the cylinder before it compresses the charge, allowing the engine to run more fuel efficient and produce more down-stroke power. (edit) as well as allowing the engine to produce higher rpms.
 
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tom21

havin fun
Location
clearwater FL
NO, I asked you to explain it. you have taken what is only a label for a part and made it literal. its not.

you posted nothing that supports your claim and then try to sound like you are correct by throwing around words like "scavenge"

If YOU read the pages you posted it explains exactly how the pipe works, completely and simply. and nowhere does it mention how the extractor does anything except flow exhaust around and out. even your little pictures show the gas circulating(backpressure) and leaving. I missed the little arrows detailing how the pipe caused a huge suction of exhaust but I do understand how the motor pushes it. don't you????

by the way- your genius is showing.:jester:
 

the WaTeRhAwK

fryin' up a/m electrics..
Location
okc
I just explained it to you.

lol

that's why the thing is called an extractor. if your too iggy to the detailed information that's been posted, I don't know what else to tell you.

that's as simple and detailed as it gets.

do you need it explained to you how the sound produced from the combusting cylinder released into the pipe causes negative pressure within the chamber? or do you need it explained to you how the negative pressure created can cause it to draw a/f through the cylinders?
 

the WaTeRhAwK

fryin' up a/m electrics..
Location
okc
here ya go, bro.......


http://www.vf750fd.com/blurbs/stroke.html



the reason the thing is called an "extractor" is because it relies on sonic waves created for the supercharging effect of the motor.


that should be more than enough in the sense of explanatory.


you seem really pissed off for some reason, tom........lol
 
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BruceSki

Formerly Motoman25
Location
Long Island
here ya go, bro.......


http://www.vf750fd.com/blurbs/stroke.html



the reason the thing is called an "extractor" is because it relies on sonic waves created for the supercharging effect of the motor.


that should be more than enough in the sense of explanatory.


you seem really pissed off for some reason, tom........lol



did you notice the returning wave actually pushes unburnt A/F mixture back into the cylinder? instead of pulling it.

maybe you didn't extract that from the animation.
 

the WaTeRhAwK

fryin' up a/m electrics..
Location
okc
did you notice the returning wave actually pushes unburnt A/F mixture back into the cylinder? instead of pulling it.

maybe you didn't extract that from the animation.



uhm.... maybe you didn't "extract" from the animation where it creates the negative (drawing effect) pressure on the cylinder(s) before it scavenges excess fuel and stuffs it back into the cylinder(s) on it's way back to the ports from the end of the stinger.




LOL

I thought you said you thought arguing on the internet was retarded?

lmao
 
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the WaTeRhAwK

fryin' up a/m electrics..
Location
okc
Initial Pressure Pulse

The sonic compression wave resulting from this abrupt release of cylinder pressure travels down the exhaust pipe until it reaches the beginning of the divergent cone, or diffuser, of the expansion chamber. From the perspective of the sound waves reaching this junction, the diffuser appears almost like an open-ended tube in that part of the energy of the pulse is reflected back up the pipe, except with an inverted sign (a rarefaction, or vacuum pulse is returned). The angle of the walls of the cone determine the magnitude of the returned negative pressure, and the length of the cone defines the duration of the returning waves:

Returned Negative Pressure

The negative pressure assists the mixture coming up through the transfer ports, and actually draws some of the mixture out into the exhaust header. Meanwhile, the original pressure pulse is still making its way down the expansion chamber, although a considerable portion of its energy was given up in creating the negative pressure waves. The convergent section of the chamber appears like a closed-end tube to the pressure pulse, and as such causes another series of waves to be reflected back up the pipe, except these waves are the same sign as the original (a compression, or pressure wave is returned). Notice that this cone has a sharper angle than the diffuser, so that a larger proportion of energy is extracted from the already weak pressure pulse:

Mixture Extraction

This pulse is timed to reach the exhaust port after the transfer ports close, but before the exhaust port closes. The returning compression wave pushes the mixture drawn into the header by the negative pressure wave back into the cylinder, thus supercharging (a bigger charge than normal) the engine. The straight section of pipe between the two cones exists to ensure that the positive waves reaches the exhaust port at the correct time:


Supercharging

Since this device uses sonic energy to achieve supercharging, it is regulated by the speed of sound in the hot exhaust gas, the dimensions of the different sections of the exhaust system, and the port durations of the engine. Because of this, it is only effective for a very narrow RPM range. This explains why two-stroke motorcycles equipped with expansion chambers have such vicious powerbands (especially in the old days before variable exhaust port timing existed). With the design illustrated here (i.e. a single divergent stage and a single convergent stage), the powerband of the engine will be akin to a 'light switch' - once the expansion chamber goes into resonance, there will be a HUGE, almost instantaneous increase in power. The powerband can be softened somewhat by reducing the angles on the cones, but this is simply due to a lower degree of supercharging. In order to get the best of both worlds (a large power increase and a wide powerband), the cones should consist of several sections, with a different angle for each section. Proper design of even a simple expansion chamber is somewhat of a black art, even though formulae exist that will get you in the ballpark (there is quite a bit more to this than simply choosing the appropriate angles and lengths based on sonic velocity - everything about the pipe comes into play, including the headpipe diameter and length, and the tailpipe ('stinger') diameter and length). Design of a multi-stage expansion chamber becomes incredibly difficult - it basically comes down to the old 'cut and try' approach in the end. This of course is not even considering whether or not the exhaust and transfer port timings and outlet areas have been optimized for expansion chamber use.
 
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the WaTeRhAwK

fryin' up a/m electrics..
Location
okc
just waiting to see if this is bs or you are actually going to so something.:pancake:



I hear ya bro. just a sh!tload of paperwork and red tape. talking to the right people to get it done. have to present it to the people in charge and see what they say.
 
wow, im starting to wonder about you guys. the sonic wave produced by the exhaust pulse is reverberated through the chamber and does help with horsepower. this is what makes a 'tuned pipe' 'tuned'.

is travis really the only other person here who knows how a pipe works?

REALLY???

travis, you started the whole venturi thing. you used the venturi effect to explain how an 'extractor pipe' extracts water, through the stinger, hence the video i made and posted that proved you wrong.

just stick to a single story, dude. youll do a little better.

GIVE ME MONEY TO JET SKI
 

the WaTeRhAwK

fryin' up a/m electrics..
Location
okc
charlie, the reason the thing is able to "extract" is because the majority of the water is diverted to the stinger, allowing the chamber to maintain nominal operating temperature. the stinger fittings' ability to draw water from the head pipe is not why it's called an extractor pipe. those are two totally different conversations.
 
charlie, the reason the thing is able to "extract" is because the majority of the water is diverted to the stinger, allowing the chamber to maintain nominal operating temperature. the stinger fittings' ability to draw water from the head pipe is not why it's called an extractor pipe. those are two totally different conversations.

again... youre on crack!

the stinger gets water INJECTED into it AFTER the chamber.

what keeps the chamber cool are the tiny orifices between the cooling jacket and the head pipe, if we're talking about a wet pipe.

btw, one of youre many reasons for calling it an 'extractor' was its 'ability to extract water into the stinger through the stinger like a venturi'. i certainly didnt make that nonsense up. thats all you dude.

stinger water doesnt cool the chamber..... well, maybe the very tip of it...

maybe you were cracked up at the time....
 
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the WaTeRhAwK

fryin' up a/m electrics..
Location
okc
again... youre on crack!

the stinger gets water INJECTED into it AFTER the chamber.

what keeps the chamber cool are the tiny orifices between the cooling jacket and the head pipe, if we're talking about a wet pipe.

btw, one of youre many reasons for calling it an 'extractor' was its 'ability to extract water into the stinger through the stinger like a venturi'. i certainly didnt make that nonsense up. thats all you dude.

stinger water doesnt cool the chamber..... well, maybe the very tip of it...

maybe you were cracked up at the time....



wrong.

the old chambers were full-on water-through chambers, that entered the pipe at the coupler fitting between the headpipe(peatrap) and the chamber. no stinger fittings.
through R&D it was discovered that by leaving just enough water going into the headpipe at the coupler to keep it from melting off, and diverting the majority to the stinger, it allowed the pipe to maintain better backpressure while also allowing the pipe to operate at a higher temperature, thus allowing the return wave to not be slowed due to tons of water going through the pipe keeping it cooled off too much to allow higher rpms. even the later models have small pisshole openings left at the peatrap couplers to keep them from melting off. as a matter of fact, the older full waterflow chambers were a hell of a lot easier to tune than the newer ones because you didn't have to drill out the pissholes inside where the coupler sits in order to get more waterflow if you wanted to use it with a tuneable limiter valve. they had a tube that shot straight down past the coupler into the expansion chamber.

the crap you keep spouting about the stinger fitting being able to pull water off the headpipe is a totally different discussion. and the reason I told you it does that is because I watch it happen every time I clear the ski( you have to have a clear vinyl hose going from the headpipe to the stinger fitting to see it). the stinger fittings ability to "venturi" water from the headpipe has absolutely nothing to do with why the thing is called an "extractor", other than the fact that the stinger fitting was a development to enhance the pipes ability to extract a/f through/from the engine at a higher tuned state of rpms.
 
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Big Kahuna

Administrator
Location
Tuscaloosa, AL
funny, I always thought it was because the head pipe is about 5 inches above the stinger and gravity pulled the water down when the ski is out of the water

Hey, if I remove the pistons, will the pipe still extract the AF mixture?
 

the WaTeRhAwK

fryin' up a/m electrics..
Location
okc
funny, I always thought it was because the head pipe is about 5 inches above the stinger and gravity pulled the water down when the ski is out of the water

Hey, if I remove the pistons, will the pipe still extract the AF mixture?



to answer the first part of your post, gravity has very little to do with it when the water will speed up going to the stinger every time you blip the throttle.


the second question is dumb, and I'm not going to answer it....LOL


actually, yes, hook a vacuum cleaner to the exhaust outlet of your ski, and pour premix down into the carb...LOL
 
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the WaTeRhAwK

fryin' up a/m electrics..
Location
okc
Harrison, I'm willing to help contribute to get your ski running.
 
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