Other Looks like 15% ethanol is coming soon...

[OCD Solutions]

The alternate sources for ethanol is good news and good information. Hopefully they can produce it much cheaper without increasing pollution and increased carbon consumption. Historically, alternate sources like fish farming don't have the best track record. The technology and practice is sound enouh but greed and bottom lines always seem to get in the way of good intentions.

 

[jetski9010]

The arguement is it takes 3 units of energy to get 4 units of ethanol. Most of that energy they are refering to is electricy for ethanol production plant not diesel. Electricity in the country comes from nuclear, coal, natural gas, wind, and solar all of which are produced here in america.

 

[jetski9010]

also this is how the current production of corn works. With Alage ethanol, the alage themselfs produce the ethanol and there is not all the work needs to be done to it like corn.

 

[OCD Solutions]

The arguement is it takes 3 units of energy to get 4 units of ethanol. Most of that energy they are refering to is electricy for ethanol production plant not diesel. Electricity in the country comes from nuclear, coal, natural gas, wind, and solar all of which are produced here in america.

Gotcha, i thouht the diesel I mentioned was that consumed by the act of farming itself. My friend knew how much diesel he consumed per season and was comparing it to a figure someone told him about how much ethanol yield they get per acre.

Perhaps I misunderstood his comparison.

 

[Tyler Zane]

:sucks:

 

[Billybo455]

not knowing much about it... it's physics, not theory. something that needs more volume to produce the same amount of heat cannot get the same economy with tuning.

since you think i know nothing i'll tell you why my car detonates gas has a stoich rating of 14.7. e10 real world stoich is closer to 14.1, not the 14.3 they claim. for a car produced when mine was 2001, the computer can't adjust quite enough to add back enough fuel. so the car leans out because it's long term fuel trim can't compensate enough. that's why detonation comes. since my car doesn't have knock sensors it can't figure out that's going on either.

i've had similar issues in my whipple'd 3.8 car. even tried e85 for awhile. e85 dropped my highway mileage from 34-35 to about 26.

 

[jetski9010]

not knowing much about it... it's physics, not theory. something that needs more volume to produce the same amount of heat cannot get the same economy with tuning.

since you think i know nothing i'll tell you why my car detonates gas has a stoich rating of 14.7. e10 real world stoich is closer to 14.1, not the 14.3 they claim. for a car produced when mine was 2001, the computer can't adjust quite enough to add back enough fuel. so the car leans out because it's long term fuel trim can't compensate enough. that's why detonation comes. since my car doesn't have knock sensors it can't figure out that's going on either.

i've had similar issues in my whipple'd 3.8 car. even tried e85 for awhile. e85 dropped my highway mileage from 34-35 to about 26.

Well then it sounds like a probelm with your car handling it not the ethanol that you are bashing.

 

[Billybo455]

nice rebuttal...

 

[Waternut]

not knowing much about it... it's physics, not theory. something that needs more volume to produce the same amount of heat cannot get the same economy with tuning.

since you think i know nothing i'll tell you why my car detonates gas has a stoich rating of 14.7. e10 real world stoich is closer to 14.1, not the 14.3 they claim. for a car produced when mine was 2001, the computer can't adjust quite enough to add back enough fuel. so the car leans out because it's long term fuel trim can't compensate enough. that's why detonation comes. since my car doesn't have knock sensors it can't figure out that's going on either.

i've had similar issues in my whipple'd 3.8 car. even tried e85 for awhile. e85 dropped my highway mileage from 34-35 to about 26.

Without trying to bash you, it sounds like something is wrong with you car. If everyone who owned a 4th gen mustang had detonation when running the gasoline provided by almost every single gas station in the country, Ford would have a massive lawsuit on their hands...or at least a recall to fix the computer, injectors, etc. Again without trying to bash you or your car, any vehicle that is designed to run on 87 octane from the factory is not a high performance sports car. So to say that a regular cars engine was specifically designed to the very limit of perfect stoichiometry is ridiculous. Even jet engines can't accomplish that. My 91 jeep could figure out how to cope with E10 and every car I've ever owned could figure it out as well. Even my S2000 which was specifically designed to run on premium fuel could handle E10 at 9k rpms.

 

[jetski9010]

nice rebuttal...

I would break it down for you but I know your just try to come back with something else. You telling me that your car cant provide enough fuel for e10? If this was the case your car would also have problems at start up when the engine is cold because there is no way it would be able to provide enough fuel for that if it cant provide enough fuel for e10 when you engine is hot. Or even on a cold day you might not want to drive it then because it might now be able to keep up with that cold air.

 

[Billybo455]

I would break it down for you but I know your just try to come back with something else. You telling me that your car cant provide enough fuel for e10? If this was the case your car would also have problems at start up when the engine is cold because there is no way it would be able to provide enough fuel for that if it cant provide enough fuel for e10 when you engine is hot. Or even on a cold day you might not want to drive it then because it might now be able to keep up with that cold air.

that statement is just ridiculous. break it down. if i'm wrong i'll say i'm sorry and you're right. you've read articles is my bet and never touched a program like xfi, aem, hp, or dhp.

jesus, the car doesn't detonate just driving. it's only under wot 3rd and up.

you run 87 in your s2k? i was using my car as an example. you're right thought. they aren't like that from the factory. our v10 work truck does the same thing. it sounds like it's going to ping itself to death under a load. just speaking my personal experiences on 87 octane e10 vs 100% gas. nothing more.

btw, they've spun a stock bottom end 5.0 to 14,500 before it let go. just takes the right valve train.....

 

[Billybo455]

My 91 jeep could figure out how to cope with E10

thanks for comparing a vehicle that comes pig rich to a wannabe sports car ever look at all the black smokes at pours out of those on wot? my father has one as a woods beater and it's pretty fat.

waternut, i wish i would of read your post first. i would not of lead off with ridiculous haha

 

[jetski9010]

Matter of fact I have messed with open looped on buell motorcycles where you dont have all the sensors and such to help you out as you dont with most moderen cars. The statment you trying to say is that you stock 2001 mustang can not inject enough e10 into your motor to support and good burn which is leading to pinging. From your posts your trying to say that ethanol as a fuel source in e10 gas is causing this. I believe this statment to be wrong. I am not saying you are not experiencing pinging I am just saying I think it is from cheap gas from that supplier from not storing it properly or it just being crapy gas to begin with.
The 3-5% more fuel that needs to be injected to run e10 over reg gas can be supported by your 2001 mustang with out a problem. Your o2 sensor will pick up the small change and spray more fuel when needed. The pinging is more likely for octane levels too low (low quality gas) or maybe another problem in the fuel system.

 

[Schmidty721]

that statement is just ridiculous. break it down. if i'm wrong i'll say i'm sorry and you're right. you've read articles is my bet and never touched a program like xfi, aem, hp, or dhp.

jesus, the car doesn't detonate just driving. it's only under wot 3rd and up.

you run 87 in your s2k? i was using my car as an example. you're right thought. they aren't like that from the factory. our v10 work truck does the same thing. it sounds like it's going to ping itself to death under a load. just speaking my personal experiences on 87 octane e10 vs 100% gas. nothing more.

btw, they've spun a stock bottom end 5.0 to 14,500 before it let go. just takes the right valve train.....

Are we talking about pre-ignition or detonation? Two different problems....

From my experience tuning fuel injected V-twin motorcycles, the deto you are experiencing only at WOT in 3rd gear or higher is not due to the slight AFR changes 10% ethanol causes. At WOT, especially under high load like your engine is experiencing in the higher gears, your target AFR is nowhere near stoich. It is much richer. My guess would be poorer overall fuel quality of the E-10 gasoline you are using.

 

[jetski9010]

Not sure in your exact case for your car but like I said I have mixed e85 everywhere from 70% without tripping the check engine light. Some cars I couldnt mix quite that much. You should try going to a 3/4 tank and then topping it off and E85 and seeing if it changes anything.

 

[Schmidty721]

I would break it down for you but I know your just try to come back with something else. You telling me that your car cant provide enough fuel for e10? If this was the case your car would also have problems at start up when the engine is cold because there is no way it would be able to provide enough fuel for that if it cant provide enough fuel for e10 when you engine is hot. Or even on a cold day you might not want to drive it then because it might now be able to keep up with that cold air.

I think his argument is that his engine is not correctly adapting for the 10% ethanol. There is no doubt that his fuel system has the capacity to compensate for the few % extra fuel. What he is stating is that his closed loop control is failing to make this compensation. In order to correctly compensate for ethanol in your fuel, you need some way to determine the ethanol concentration. This is typically done with some sort of oxygen sensor in the fuel cell. That being said, I do not feel that 10% or even 15% is enough of a variance to cause an issue.

In regards to cold starts, cold weather, elevation changes, etc. There are compensation tables for all of these programmed in the ECU as well.

 

[jetski9010]

right I understand that but his oxygen sensor should have a factory determind lambda number programed in for differnt situations the engine is going through and work with the ecu. Ethanol is going to be able to handle just about any factory lambda number you run it at as you have a little more room to play with the temps because they are cooler. I am talking more like running straight e85 in a non flex fuel car and having the check engine light come on for it running lean. I am nowhere near talking about the very small amount of ethanol like in e10. I myself am not even happy with the e10 setup and keeping the same octane ratings. If you puting 10% ethonal in there and its still at 87 octane the quality of gas must have gone down. I would like to see it move to e20 or e30 and be sold at 94 or 95 octane. Like you said his system should be able to handle the extra fuel needed for the E10 fuel and is more likely to be a problem from cheap fuel.