Other PHP 937 or DASA 970?

[kevbo]

Engine builder battle! Kidding. Good informative discussion and very helpful for those of us looking to go beyond the 760BB SS engines. Is surprising there are no dyno benchmarks for any engines, why is that?

As soon as one mfg starts lying the rest will follow, by the end of the week our engines will be making 300HP. The B pipe ads went from claiming 12hp to 19hp as soon as Westcoast claimed 19hp over stock. Mathematically, 12HP is generous with the stock 61X port. Its much easier to sell based on size and reputation instead of facts that customers can't measure anyway. I would be happy to get simple port maps of various cylinders. Instead I can only get a name, size, and a lot of conjecture on why one should be better than the other.

 

[102nd7]

Oh I'm very happy for the support of these small companies. Although I've only dealt with Php they were very helpful and even are allowing me to make payments. And if there product performs as well as there customer servise. I'm sure I will be very pleased.

 

[masterblaster]

other than ford and chevy motors,all performance motors are small run production,as well as turbos,heads,manifolds intakes,you name it,they are all huge,require much more cnc machine time,way more welding and way bigger blocks of alum to start with,they are almost all cheaper than ski motors,stock ski motors are cheap because they have nothing aftermarket on them.Im speaking of a/m motors and motor parts.
We all appreciate the time and ingenuity all the companies involved in this sport are putting into it..we would not be progressing without them,but some things should really be changing soon as far competition is concerned...There is nothing wrong with friendly competition and a better informed consumer..I think you will see alot of this change this yr,and all the guess work along with it...

I imagine a good chunk of cost is just the size of our sport. If you want a stock yami case and cylinder those can be had for cheap. If you want a custom billet case and or cylinder, those are made by small shops in small quantity runs. No large production so it's manufacturing 101. We'd all love to see lower cost engines but with the 2 strokes becoming more rare I think we got what we got and while I hate paying a lot more than the other sporting industries have to pay I appreciate we do have shops that have dedicated themselves to providing the brap to the small colony of riders that want it.

 

[wsuwrhr]

MB,

You are actually going to compare the cost of "small quantites" of auto performance part to small quantities of jetski motors and performance parts? I'm pretty sure you do both and I can't imagine you think the jetski market comparies to the size of the auto market.

other than ford and chevy motors,all performance motors are small run production,as well as turbos,heads,manifolds intakes,you name it,they are all huge,require much more cnc machine time,way more welding and way bigger blocks of alum to start with,they are almost all cheaper than ski motors,stock ski motors are cheap because they have nothing aftermarket on them.Im speaking of a/m motors and motor parts.
We all appreciate the time and ingenuity all the companies involved in this sport are putting into it..we would not be progressing without them,but some things should really be changing soon as far competition is concerned...There is nothing wrong with friendly competition and a better informed consumer..I think you will see alot of this change this yr,and all the guess work along with it...

 

[Matt_E]

jetski market compares to the size of the auto market.

 

[masterblaster]

My comparison was referring to the turbo car market,specifically the toyota supra market,there are far fewer of those than skis in the states..many other small niche motorsports as well,sleds,atv,carts and such...much more open friendly competition involved imho

 

[Matt_E]

You think the turbo'd Supra market is smaller than the market for performance motors in standup jetskis?

I don't think it's possible to be smaller than our market niche and still have a business. Hell, most of the vendors/ shops in this market have to resort to secondary markets just to make it work.

 

[masterblaster]

Yes I do ,Im well aware of the market for both..I know how many motors and parts go out a yr from the few large shops building them.Ive worked with a few of them. I agree anyone in this industry should have other markets they work with to make business sense .thats actually my point...No one is getting rich inside one market as small as this,but it certainly leaves room for ..........
Things have come a long way in the last few yrs,with some of the biggest in innovations this past yr,I fully expect that to be even bigger this yr..

 

[Billybo455]

umm, i've seen dozens of turbo supras or 300 sc's with the conversions. i can't believe you honestly think a mass produced car sold around the world has a smaller market then the ski industry? if you put a turbo supra in front of a 100 random people. i bet 98 of them would know it. if you put a billet dasa1200 in front of those same people i bet no one would know what it is. the market to hop a pontiac fiero is bigger then the ski market!

 

[Crab]

7511

 

[masterblaster]

umm billy.. supras are not on every street corner,much less the built ones im talking about at the level these shops are building them too...put your average 2jgte in front of those same 100 people,no one is gonna know what it is either.much less a 3.4 stroker 2j..

there are less than a couple hundred builds like what im referring to in the county.This is just one example,dont get caught up in it,if your happy with where things are at currently in this market with costs and innovation thats fine with me...

 

[SmittySX]

Well i just talked with chuck at CPT and now im kind of interested in the 62t +4mm 900 motor that he builds... Although it is no dasa 1100 its 2 grand less... Everything is still up in the air.. If moneys right, DASA power!!

 

[Billybo455]

umm billy.. supras are not on every street corner,much less the built ones im talking about at the level these shops are building them too...put your average 2jgte in front of those same 100 people,no one is gonna know what it is either.much less a 3.4 stroker 2j..

there are less than a couple hundred builds like what im referring to in the county.This is just one example,dont get caught up in it,if your happy with where things are at currently in this market with costs and innovation thats fine with me...

i live 30 minutes away from titan. been to the hp shootouts in texas. they made a joke years ago about supras. what's the difference between a 600hp, 800hp, and 1000hp supra? they all run 10's. granted that's not the truth, but the car is coming to being out for 20 years now.

i'm fine with the prices. i hope they go up so they separate the men from the boy'z.

 

[naticen]

i'm fine with the prices. i hope they go up so they separate the men from the boy'z.

I like to make good money by doing good work. I also don't mind paying good money to somebody else who provides a good product or service. I think this is concept that you should learn as you become a man, but is that what your quote refers to or do you feel like having overly expensive things makes you a man?

 

[masterblaster]

being out 20 yrs sounds just like a superjet eh...but look at the diff between the texas supra nats and the joke of jetski performance meets as far as competition,dyno tuning and competing,general understanding of hp and torque of any given setup,laughable really.."hey hows that motor compare to your last motor" dunno but it rips! The only thing higher prices separate is a fool and his money..
I have built many a mk4 supra,all diff power levels and purposes I have 2 in the driveway now,one for the street and one for the track ,even though many are runnin much lower than 10s,no one cares. everyone knows its a freeway top end destroyer .. Alot guys I know could run any motor they want in a ski,but still work within reason. I have 3 skis in the garage all them "RIP" for realistic $..maybe someone should bring that kinda setup to the masses and know what kinda power curve they make with a givin setup...hmmmm yea just maybe for the boyz...lol

 

[SirMrManGuy]

Because there are 2 different ways to build an engine on a dyno. One way is to build an engine for the purpose intended based on your knowledge of 2 strokes and air flow characteristics and port size/shape/timing then put that built engine on a dyno as your baseline and use the dyno to tune your carbs, headpipe, nozzle diameter and impeller pitch etc. To get the most power and best torque curve out of that engine possible but not just focusing on the max horsepower numbers.

The other way is to focus on your max horsepower output and not care how this engine pulls down low or how quickly it will rev to max RPM under a load and not caring about anything but the max HP numbers. You can port the engine for full airflow and cylinder stuffing at high RPM just to achieve those numbers. Then use the dyno to get the most RPMs out of that engine since that's where torque falls off and horsepower takes over. Once they tune it to the highest HP numbers they can achieve... they post it online or in a magazine and 90% of the people don't realize that those numbers done mean schit when you don't ride in that RPM range and will never get to the sweet spot of that engine. Dynos should be used as a tuning tool not a horsepower building and sales marketing assistant.

Yup, I'd love to see good curves before spending 10k on motor setup. It couldn't be that expensive to build a skid mounted motor/generator style dyno specifically for yamaha 2cyl applications since the motor mounts are all the same. Put it in an enclosed trailer and take it to Daytona and setup an engine builder challenge (area under the curve, not peak). Or just buy one of these water break style dyno's and skid mount it to a midshaft bearing and pillow block on the back (no pump) http://www.land-and-sea.com/pwc-dyno/pwc-dyno.htm

Matt_E, curious why you are against having the information available? Dumb people are always going to throw their money away because they don't know any better, but as a fellow engineer I figured you would want reliable data to make informed decisions. Everyone here has figured that we like our engines tuned for low to mid range punch, so it shouldn't be that much of a stretch to teach people how to read a chart to look for a nice fat powerband down low.


When I was into rock crawling, one of the best things to happen to axle development was Bobby Long (RIP) building a rig for destructively testing axle shafts, one of the things they found was that one of the modifications many shops were doing to birfield joints was actually making them weaker then stock. The next year or two saw a huge increase the production of aftermarket joints made of materials like 4340/300M


As for the cost of the motors, having spent some time doing CNC machining, I think the costs are about where I'd expect based on the volume (maybe a 100 of each design per year AT BEST probably less).

 

[Matt_E]

Matt_E, curious why you are against having the information available?

Is that what I said? Please don't make up straw men.

 

[SirMrManGuy]

Is that what I said? Please don't make up straw men.

I guess I misinterpereted what you were getting at in post 45.

 

[Matt_E]

I was only explaining why things are the way they are. It would be very nice to get standardized numbers traceable to some calibrated standard.

 

[SirMrManGuy]

Yup, as consumers I think that at some point it would be worth pushing for this. I get sick of reading engine threads that go nowhere due to the lack of comparable data. I'm actually kind of surprised that the builders don't own dynos for their own testing purposes (or maybe they do and just keep the data in house).

Fortunately, in the mean time we have engine builders who are reliable and trustworthy for the most part, so sending money to PHP or DASA will likely get you a very good motor.