650/X-2 Wanna flip

[ProSouth]

TRU DAT... ^^ i've "heard" of some nice 701's out performing 760's and so on and so forth. i would def. ditch the kawi driveline... that outta stir something up

 

[Wilke]

Brand means little once you get to full custom builds. With the right builder you can build a kawi based motor that performs just as well as a similarly built yamaha based one. Just for example, EME engines are based on a polaris engine. Yamaha desinged their stock engines making them better for freestyle out of the box, but once you go to full custom builds, the original design is nearly erased entirely, meaning starting with one over the other means nothing.

All the yamaha is best stuff comes directly from the "buy a superjet" mentality. If everyone is riding skis that take yamaha engines, why bother to develop something else. Doesn't mean it is an inherently better design, just means its in higher demand.

 

[ProSouth]

I meant really as far as options and parts availability. I enjoy kawasakis, just not really with jet skis. I just like the ton of options with basic oem parts from yamaha.

 

[Adrenaline Addix]

800 should be fine then

 

[Adrenaline Addix]

Brand means little once you get to full custom builds. With the right builder you can build a kawi based motor that performs just as well as a similarly built yamaha based one. Just for example, EME engines are based on a polaris engine. Yamaha desinged their stock engines making them better for freestyle out of the box, but once you go to full custom builds, the original design is nearly erased entirely, meaning starting with one over the other means nothing.

All the yamaha is best stuff comes directly from the "buy a superjet" mentality. If everyone is riding skis that take yamaha engines, why bother to develop something else. Doesn't mean it is an inherently better design, just means its in higher demand.

Do you know what Polaris engine it based off

 

[Wilke]

I'm pretty sure they are based off the 777cc polaris octane motor.

 

[WFO Speedracer]

At least not a gen 1, seeing as noone makes a lightweight gen 1 hull - that i know of, there were rumors of people developing one, but I haven't seen anything able to purchase. But I would bet that if you gave 20-30k to bullet or trinity they wouldn't have too much trouble building you a Gen 2 that flatwater flips. Problem is noone has had the motivation ($$$$) to build one, anyone who spends (or has thier sponsers spend) that kind of coin on a ski is getting something that is built for competition (aka pole ski) and an X2 is never going to be competitive in freestyle.

Really , I believe Jeff Kamikaze Kantz would highly disagree with that statement.

 

[WFO Speedracer]

I have buddies that build carbon fiber/Kevlar chassis for sleds, I will have to ask them how hard it would be to attempt to build a hull

Attempting to build a hull is easy, Just ask Highroller and Team Bill, actually building a decent and lightweight hull is a completely different story altogether.

 

[Wilke]

Really , I believe Jeff Kamikaze Kantz would highly disagree with that statement.

Sorry, shoud have clarified "in todays freestyle" of feet locked in holds doing nothing but backflip variations and fist pumps. But there are exceptions to every rule, I'm sure with the right rider it 'could' happen. I love watching kantz' 93 WF routine on youtube.

 

[jamesgunter68]

Contact Norbert Webber for your hull

 

[iangdesign]

Brand means little once you get to full custom builds. With the right builder you can build a kawi based motor that performs just as well as a similarly built yamaha based one. Just for example, EME engines are based on a polaris engine. Yamaha desinged their stock engines making them better for freestyle out of the box, but once you go to full custom builds, the original design is nearly erased entirely, meaning starting with one over the other means nothing.

All the yamaha is best stuff comes directly from the "buy a superjet" mentality. If everyone is riding skis that take yamaha engines, why bother to develop something else. Doesn't mean it is an inherently better design, just means its in higher demand.

But it's in higher demand because it's more reliable then another type of engine. How many kawi based 1000cc. 1100cc, or 1200 cc twin cylinder engines do you see out there?

 

[mydixiewrecked]

I can count 6 kawi 970 dasa's off the top of my head

 

[iangdesign]

I have never heard of these engines. Who owns them?

I just base my assumptions on my engines and people I ride with. I have run 3 kawi engines in the last 2 years and all have issues, whether I build them or I have bought them off people have built them and they all have issues. I build one Yami 701 and it runs awesome even when the jetting is off. Then my buddy improves it and it runs even better. My argument is Yami built a solid engine more then 20 years ago and every aftermarket builder bases their engines off of it nowadays.

Kawis are great entry level but step into a Yami and it's night and day.

 

[mydixiewrecked]

rad dudes gtx2 970
rad dudes fixster 970
rad dudes 95 970
phlipcydes flatdeck x2 970
this one http://www.x-h2o.com/threads/80089-DASA-KAWI-970-CC-PV-Going-into-SXI-PRO-Hull
this one 2 http://www.x-h2o.com/threads/113192...-full-set-up-pipe-ignition-carbs-DROPPED-6300
this one could be with larger pistons. right stroke though http://www.pwctoday.com/showthread.php?t=352152

:love: I want one...

 

[kevbo]

I have never heard of these engines. Who owns them?

I just base my assumptions on my engines and people I ride with. I have run 3 kawi engines in the last 2 years and all have issues, whether I build them or I have bought them off people have built them and they all have issues. I build one Yami 701 and it runs awesome even when the jetting is off. Then my buddy improves it and it runs even better. My argument is Yami built a solid engine more then 20 years ago and every aftermarket builder bases their engines off of it nowadays.

Kawis are great entry level but step into a Yami and it's night and day.

Can you be more specific about your problems? The only problems that I found with Kawasakis have been crank failures in race boats. A low port kawasaki is very similar to a Yamaha in a given hull/pump.

 

[Wilke]

I just base my assumptions on my engines and people I ride with. I have run 3 kawi engines in the last 2 years and all have issues, whether I build them or I have bought them off people have built them and they all have issues. I build one Yami 701 and it runs awesome even when the jetting is off. Then my buddy improves it and it runs even better. My argument is Yami built a solid engine more then 20 years ago and every aftermarket builder bases their engines off of it nowadays.

Kawis are great entry level but step into a Yami and it's night and day.

You are talking about factory engines (or at least factory case/crank/cylinder) I was saying there is little difference when you do full custom builds, i.e. with billet cylinders/cases/custom port design/stroked/ect. not just porting and high compression on the stock motor.

 

[WFO Speedracer]

I have never heard of these engines. Who owns them?

I just base my assumptions on my engines and people I ride with. I have run 3 kawi engines in the last 2 years and all have issues, whether I build them or I have bought them off people have built them and they all have issues. I build one Yami 701 and it runs awesome even when the jetting is off. Then my buddy improves it and it runs even better. My argument is Yami built a solid engine more then 20 years ago and every aftermarket builder bases their engines off of it nowadays.

Kawis are great entry level but step into a Yami and it's night and day.

Its all relative, I build Yamaha engines at a rate of 10 to 1 over Kawasaki engines or Seadoo engines, I have built two this week, one 701 61X and a NPV 1200. Does that mean Yamahas are junk , no it means they have oil lines that come off and power valve failures.

 

[Vumad]

The aftermarket builders use Yamaha motors because most people wanting them are riding Yamaha boats. The SJ was competitive with the SX and SXI until the SXR came out. This lead to almost 30 years of Yamaha performance. The X2 was on top of the sport class until the B1 came out, then it dominated, and Yamaha was on top again. Builder cater to the market. If you develop a Kawasaki engine, but need additional hardware to install it in a Yamaha hull, you increase your bottom line. You also increase your net profits by developing to the largest market, that being the Yamaha hulls.

Kawasaki has simply not done as good of a job on designing their hulls up until they built the SXR. People buy the Yamaha hulls, then they need Yamaha motors, and builders improve on the Yamaha design.

Additionally, the race boats are looking for something different than the free riders on this forum. Free riders want bottom end, lower port timing and the port timing can't be lowered. The yamaha is a better platform to start. People can spend a little here and there and get power. So now you have this person with a completely built Yamaha based boat, Total loss, B-pipe, nice hull, they want more power. Do they ditch the entire platform to get an aftermarket Kawi motor? No. They send it to Jet maniac to work it over. Then they get aftermarket hull, set up for yamaha drive line. Now, why convert it to hold a kawi? buy the XS1000, which can also be sold to stock SJ owners.

Race boats need higher port timing. The Kawis have that. No need to convert motors. It's ready to be worked over for racing. Need bigger than 800cc or big bore? You're going to go to a 1100 tripple motor, because you're racing, the extra 20 or 30 lbs of tripple motor is ok because you're trying to stay in the water and it's going to create a justifible about of extra power to weight. Why develop the 800 motor? It's pretty close to what you need for racing the 800 class right from the start. It's more profitable to make it so it fits the other Kawi parts.

So, in conclusion, completely custom motors have little to do with which platform is better. XS has professional engine builders with lifetimes of experience and mechanical engineers. A XS1200 may be based off a yamaha but nothing in that thing is OEM. It's been completely redesigned from the ground up and the only thing yamaha based left is the bolt patterns and a few similarities like taking a yamaha ignition and flywheel, but that's only because they have already been developed for the stock motor and work great. Why start all over? That's just one example I know. I'm sure Dasa is in a similar situation. Like the saying, "There's nothing stock about a stock car."

With all that said, yamaha is better. Why? because in my opinion they build a quality product right the first time. I have faith in their product to be what they claim it to be and keep on being that. Kawasaki is a close second in my book, and I think they really stepped up their game with the SXR. This lead to a yamaha dominace in the aftermarket community, more aftermarket parts avail, and when stuff like the XS900 came out, they took advantage of those existing parts. No reason to redesign an exhuast that only fits your motor, when you can make your motor perform just as well and easiert to sell by aligning the fitmet with an already great pipe.

It's not about which platform is better. It's about which platform is more profitable. With the large demand for motors for yamaha hulls, that makes the yamaha platform the winner. Make a Kawi design fit in a yamaha hull and it will perform just as well, but with far more work, a higher price and fewer accessories available. That just wouldn't make sense.

 

[WFO Speedracer]

Yamaha is not an innovator , I used to work at the dealership and was amazed at the technology that was rehashed over and over again. I will give some examples, first Yamaha four wheeler was a Yamaha 225 DX three wheeler frame with pieces welded onto it to hang two more wheels on the front, absolute junk really. First Yamaha watercraft WR500 was a converted outboard engine with pieces added onto it to turn the intake and exhaust and make it fit into a watercraft, good skis slow as hell but at least it was reliable. Yamaha Blaster four wheeler, a DT175 engine stuffed into a crappy frame to make an even crappier four wheeler. Yamaha Radian, a Seca 550 engine and frame with different bodywork. Yamaha XL series watercraft, waveventure hulls with new plastic bodywork, seat, grab handles and steering cover to make it look like a new boat, nothing new there same old technology. Yamaha VX series, MR1 motorcycle engine stuffed into a watercraft with gear reductions added to bring the pump rpms back down to 7000, the engine still turns 10,000 rpm and the gear reduction sounds like a Muncie rockcrusher four speed transmission. Yamaha 6M6, 61X,62T,64X engine series, engine started out as a 650, larger bore added for 701, larger bore added again for the 760, it works and it works well but its not innovative in the least.

 

[iangdesign]

Yamaha is not an innovator , I used to work at the dealership and was amazed at the technology that was rehashed over and over again. I will give some examples, first Yamaha four wheeler was a Yamaha 225 DX three wheeler frame with pieces welded onto it to hang two more wheels on the front, absolute junk really. First Yamaha watercraft WR500 was a converted outboard engine with pieces added onto it to turn the intake and exhaust and make it fit into a watercraft, good skis slow as hell but at least it was reliable. Yamaha Blaster four wheeler, a DT175 engine stuffed into a crappy frame to make an even crappier four wheeler. Yamaha Radian, a Seca 550 engine and frame with different bodywork. Yamaha XL series watercraft, waveventure hulls with new plastic bodywork, seat, grab handles and steering cover to make it look like a new boat, nothing new there same old technology. Yamaha VX series, MR1 motorcycle engine stuffed into a watercraft with gear reductions added to bring the pump rpms back down to 7000, the engine still turns 10,000 rpm and the gear reduction sounds like a Muncie rockcrusher four speed transmission. Yamaha 6M6, 61X,62T,64X engine series, engine started out as a 650, larger bore added for 701, larger bore added again for the 760, it works and it works well but its not innovative in the least.

Why reinvent the wheel when a round one already works? I can see your point, but why would they spend the R and D on new engines if they have had something that has worked and worked well for years as Vumad said.

This is all great info guys I am learning alot! Keep it up! I really like the fact that there are large 2 cylinder kawi engines out there as well. I did not know that before.