Custom/Hybrid When will there be a hull everyone can afford?

[SUPERTUNE]

There is not that much R&D to do. The builders have it easy, all they have to do is make a good looking hull that is short and fat. A plywood crate will backflip just fine with one of the big engines installed. The real work is in promoting the product. Buyers arent asking technical questions so sellers have to play on emotion.

Oh come on...that's a bunch of BS! It took us 3 molds and almost 2 years to get to where we are.
But I'll agree you do have to get aggressive in promoting product, we could do more with our Kong hull, but we know what we have and don't come here and pound our chest.
Those that have ridden, seen or own a Kong know.

 

[KTM434]

I've known about the kong hull for some time now so it's not news to me but I'd definitely say it's under-advertised and under-exposed compared to others

 

[HBCwatercraft]

Id have to agree with supertune with the multiple moulds and fine tuning, same thing here. Takes 1-2 yrs to
get somthing were you want it before releasing it to the public..thats to say what your income is to spend and
if you have other things in the works at the same time..Cost me about 4500.00 to 5000.00 to build molds (all parts to make ski)
ride plate mould, hood, liner, upperdeck/lower/ ect.. and that is mould #1 then you spend the cash to build the first ski more
time and money...Then somtimes it works or doesnt, or ahhh humm. Then mold 2 begins for you to change the issues
at hand. When I say mould #2 that means usually just lower deck as that has more function. Then build ski #2 and hoplully
it pans out for you. All said and done 10 thousand has passed you buy and about 2 yrs. Your hopes.....to sell a
awsome product you have worked hard on and TESTED, making your money back and some if your one of the
lucky ones. (Cant speak for anyone else, but for me getting credit back for hard work that was endured is priceless.)

 

[JetManiac]

There is not that much R&D to do. The builders have it easy, all they have to do is make a good looking hull that is short and fat. A plywood crate will backflip just fine with one of the big engines installed. The real work is in promoting the product. Buyers arent asking technical questions so sellers have to play on emotion.

As accurate and knowledgable as most of your technical posts are, this is complete and utter nonsense!!!

The amount of time and effort involved in making mock ups, plugs, molds(which wear and need to be replaced), etc. is CRAZY. Obviously a few hulls may have been produced with little thought and testing, no need to name names.

Being in the industry and close to several hull builders, I see first hand how much time it takes. Hundreds and hundreds of hours is probably an understatement. Tem and crew at superfreak are often working insane hours and pulling all nighters working on new molds and designs. The superfreak grounds are covered in molds, plugs, projects, etc.

The same thing applies to xscream. They started with a proven design and then started hacking and modifying. Stoyer works crazy hours over there on kong hulls. Both he and Pat are always riding and testing and have continually been refining their design.

Why all this work? Gen1.0 flips already right? Nonsense!

There are many different types of hulls being produced and they all perform and handle very differently. It is a very competitive market for hulls and much more than just marketing is required. Many of these hulls are also used for surf riding as well.

Obviously, some will buy something new because it is different or because of marketing, etc., but most shop around and talk, ask many technical questions, demo ride, etc., etc.

Give these builders some credit!!! They work very hard because they love to ride and this sport. I promise you the monetary rewards are not that great especially considering the difficulty of the work.

 

[kevbo]

As accurate and knowledgable as most of your technical posts are, this is complete and utter nonsense!!!

The amount of time and effort involved in making mock ups, plugs, molds(which wear and need to be replaced), etc. is CRAZY. Obviously a few hulls may have been produced with little thought and testing, no need to name names.

Being in the industry and close to several hull builders, I see first hand how much time it takes. Hundreds and hundreds of hours is probably an understatement. Tem and crew at superfreak are often working insane hours and pulling all nighters working on new molds and designs. The superfreak grounds are covered in molds, plugs, projects, etc.

The same thing applies to xscream. They started with a proven design and then started hacking and modifying. Stoyer works crazy hours over there on kong hulls. Both he and Pat are always riding and testing and have continually been refining their design.

Why all this work? Gen1.0 flips already right? Nonsense!

There are many different types of hulls being produced and they all perform and handle very differently. It is a very competitive market for hulls and much more than just marketing is required. Many of these hulls are also used for surf riding as well.

Obviously, some will buy something new because it is different or because of marketing, etc., but most shop around and talk, ask many technical questions, demo ride, etc., etc.

Give these builders some credit!!! They work very hard because they love to ride and this sport. I promise you the monetary rewards are not that great especially considering the difficulty of the work.

I guess you can make a big deal out of anything. I had a 75 year old aircraft designer plan a backflip hull. It took all of 30 minutes, with a slide rule, to get a basic dimension that is very close to the newest Japanese hulls. That was six years ago, I could have had that same drawing 40 years ago. The sport evolved at the rate of its participants understanding with cut and try methodology.

 

[Waternut]

No problem there, Im planning on pulling a super thin glass bottom before anything so I can change it up to run a kawi pump and make another mold. I just ordered a MAXX 145 kawi pump for my 300 build so I dont want it to go to waste.

I tried this when I did my first hood to make sure the shape was appropriate. I used a layer of thick fiberglass mat. It is possible but it's really a PITA and you may destroy your test piece trying to get it out. With a full up part, it's stiff and as you pry on the edges, the rest of the part begins to pop out of the mold. When the part is really flexible your wedges just slide under the part and the part just flexes out of the way so you really have to work hard to get that test piece out. Just fair warning...

I don't really care what others say... Try it, learn it, play with it, and have fun but don't put so much time into it that you lose your interest in jetskiing. The molds are done and IMO that's at least 75% of the work done already. If you screw up, you're no worse off in money than someone who bought a brand new handlepole and slapped it on their ski in hopes that it would make them a better rider. You guys have my cell # and I'm happy to help you out in any way that I can. Wish you lived closer to me though...showing is easier than explaining.

 

[KTM434]

Anyone can make a drawing look good. It's the hours of fine tuning and fiberglassing and making new molds that make a good design into a great performing hull

 

[Brian_216]

I tried this when I did my first hood to make sure the shape was appropriate. I used a layer of thick fiberglass mat. It is possible but it's really a PITA and you may destroy your test piece trying to get it out. With a full up part, it's stiff and as you pry on the edges, the rest of the part begins to pop out of the mold. When the part is really flexible your wedges just slide under the part and the part just flexes out of the way so you really have to work hard to get that test piece out. Just fair warning...

I don't really care what others say... Try it, learn it, play with it, and have fun but don't put so much time into it that you lose your interest in jetskiing. The molds are done and IMO that's at least 75% of the work done already. If you screw up, you're no worse off in money than someone who bought a brand new handlepole and slapped it on their ski in hopes that it would make them a better rider. You guys have my cell # and I'm happy to help you out in any way that I can. Wish you lived closer to me though...showing is easier than explaining.

Really all we are after changing is the pump area so it will fit an sxr pump. I want it to be diverse. The nice part Nick did with this was make the bottom deck 2 pcs. So the pump section can have a new mold made up and give the option of running what you have and u just swap the rear half of the mold for what the customer asks.

 

[ridetrp]

im in jersey and have sxr molds, if you need a part of the pump area or a mold off the plug let me know

 

[Brian_216]

I may take you up on that if you wouldnt mind laying up a small section of the pump area for me.

Anyone care to talk lamination schedules and general hull construction?

Im toying with ideas for construction and came up with this for a carbon version keeping in mind strength and weight.

Layer one at 0 degrees 6k 8.9oz 2x2 twill carbon at a thickness of .011
Layer two at 45 degrees 6k 8.9oz 2x2 twill carbon at a thickness of .011
Layer three at 90 degrees 6k 8.9oz 2x2 twill carbon at a thickness of .011

Pull vacuum and let cure.

After cured, wipe and lightly scuff.

Layer 4 2mm Nomex Honeycomb throughout bottom deck and high stress areas

Layer 5 at 45 degrees 6k 8.9oz 2x2 twill carbon at a thickness of .011

Layer 6 at 0 degrees 6k 8.9oz 2x2 twill carbon at a thickness of .011

Total thickness of .134"

I think on the glass version it will use 2mm core mat to gain the desired thickness and strength.

The reasoning behind the second vacuum setup to sandwich the Nomex core is to not saturate the honeycomb and add excess resin and weight. I feel like this is a good start but others may disagree. I will be making lots of ride plates before we get ready to lay up a hull. That will give plenty of time to experiment with different layups and see what does and doesn't work. Feel free to add opinions and experience.

 

[McDog]

I would think one layup without core would be stronger than two with it. The 20oz we used for the feral worked great and only needed a few layers. John should have it on the water in a week or so and we will find out real fast how it holds up.

 

[Brian_216]

I had the chance to talk to him on the phone the other day about that. It is very interesting how he did that. From my research I am convinced that more layers of thinner carbon and constantly alternating the direction of the weave will give more strength than a lesser amount of layers of the same final thickness. (But I read all that on the internet and in books, nothing better than real world proof!) Im anxious to see how his turns out.

I had a few local riders ask me about getting one of these. So far we are giving a few away for materials, beer money and help- but its a great way to do some real life testing and be able to see them often and keep an eye on how they hold up.

 

[Cannibal]

I asked a bit about composites a while back...the consensus was not to use coremat at all. Can't remember who, but there were pictures of the de-lamination at the coremat.

Ya, it's nice in theory to add thickness and strength without weight, but I guess not the best for our applications.

 

[Brian_216]

I asked a bit about composites a while back...the consensus was not to use coremat at all. Can't remember who, but there were pictures of the de-lamination at the coremat.

Ya, it's nice in theory to add thickness and strength without weight, but I guess not the best for our applications.

I will look into photos of the delam with core mat. From what I understand you want it to have at least 2" around the core mat laminated front and back. I would imagine if they ran core mat right up to an edge without overlapping layers of glass or carbon around the perimeter this could happen.

 

[Cannibal]

Here's the thread:

http://www.x-h2o.com/threads/90513-Hull-Building-USS-ROOSKI&p=1090421&viewfull=1#post1090421

I don't know enough about the product (though I have a few yards of it here) and really didn't read much of that thread.

 

[McDog]

If the hull cracks and water gets to to the mat things go bad fast.

 

[Waternut]

Coremat is less likely to delaminate and won't really absorb water because it's filled with resin. Foam core is sketchy. It will delmaninate faster than coremat and if your hull has any cracks or leaks, the foam core will adsorb water and the water alone can cause delamination. With 2-3 layers of 11oz fabric, on either side of foam core, your foam will get wet unless you prime and seal the thing REALLY well. Then pray that your primer/sealer doesn't get compromised or you'll be grinding an enormous hole in your hull to get rid of it. Honeycomb is BAD BAD BAD!! You'll find that the stuff won't conform to any kind of curvature and it is EXTREMELY common for water to get inside. It's also guaranteed that honeycomb will delaminate...

In general, lots of thin layers of carbon/fiberglass are better than fewer thick layers because the fabric is straighter since it doesn't have to weave over a large tow going the opposite direction. Not sure if I'm being clear or not... The problem is cost though because you don't really save a lot by getting thinner layers. Just for FYI... in a weave cloth, 0° and 90° are the same thing.

 

[Brian_216]

Yea, I goofed on the 0 and 90 part but you got what I meant about going on a 45 between layers. In conversation with Nick I learned he used core mat in his fiberglass layup on the prototype. He still had a super light hull in glass and only had stress cracks around the pump mounting area and pole mount. That being said if I follow his layup schedule and pay close attention to his problem areas I have a great starting point for the first round.

 

[WFO Speedracer]

I guess you can make a big deal out of anything. I had a 75 year old aircraft designer plan a backflip hull. It took all of 30 minutes, with a slide rule, to get a basic dimension that is very close to the newest Japanese hulls. That was six years ago, I could have had that same drawing 40 years ago. The sport evolved at the rate of its participants understanding with cut and try methodology.

Anyone can put something on paper, actually making the molds and a product that works in the real world is an entirely different matter.

 

[WFO Speedracer]

Coremat is less likely to delaminate and won't really absorb water because it's filled with resin. Foam core is sketchy. It will delmaninate faster than coremat and if your hull has any cracks or leaks, the foam core will adsorb water and the water alone can cause delamination. With 2-3 layers of 11oz fabric, on either side of foam core, your foam will get wet unless you prime and seal the thing REALLY well. Then pray that your primer/sealer doesn't get compromised or you'll be grinding an enormous hole in your hull to get rid of it. Honeycomb is BAD BAD BAD!! You'll find that the stuff won't conform to any kind of curvature and it is EXTREMELY common for water to get inside. It's also guaranteed that honeycomb will delaminate...

In general, lots of thin layers of carbon/fiberglass are better than fewer thick layers because the fabric is straighter since it doesn't have to weave over a large tow going the opposite direction. Not sure if I'm being clear or not... The problem is cost though because you don't really save a lot by getting thinner layers. Just for FYI... in a weave cloth, 0° and 90° are the same thing.

Honeycomb is bad , bad bad really, someone please tell this to Sergio @XFT, did you read this on the internet somewhere or do you have real world experience you are basing this off of. The honeycomb is available scored on one side specifically so it can conform to a radius, you can make a complete circle with it if you want,what it will not do is compound curves, I have some honeycomb here we have been playing with, it enables you to make extremely light weight structures with incredible strength, however some working knowledge of the product is necessary to use it properly.