Other Why Stand-Up PWC's are no longer in production (School Project)

I do know why because of the 2 stroke engine and emissions and such but still have a few questions. Does anyone have the official law or whatever that i can just read online. Also, is it LEGAL to buy a hull and a 2 stroke engine and make your own standup, and get it registered with title and whatever. And what is the biggest simplest terms to describe to my class (speech in college) the difference between 2 stroke and 4 strokers? Are they still dirt bikes, quads and such still produced with 2 strokers? I know the gist of the law from reading the forum on here, and internet but i figured many of you know how to get around it and what the important stuff actually is. Thanks alot to who ever helps.

Signed,
Why the hell do i have a speech class for nursing school.
Tyler

I will have to cite stuff so if anyone has any good websites id appreciate it, whatever anyone says on here ill just add it to one of those cites (don't think the teacher will know... :shhh:
 
Americans are fat lazy people. Big skis started the decline in standup sales long before 2 stroke vs 4 stroke talk.

and as far as sport racing went.
X2s were pushed off by the bigger blaster. Then Blaster were pushed off by the bigger seadoos. Skis got bigger and less fun to watch.
 
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they still make the 2012 superjet for "racing purposes only" so you have to have some license to get one and only use it for racing and practice...
 

snowxr

V watch your daughters V
Location
Waterford, MI
What about HSR Benelli? They are still making skis, too. It's just a choice made by Kaw, polaris, etc. to no longer build stand ups. Sales drive production. When you only sell 1000 skis a year, it's not very profitable compared to selling 10,000 couches.
 

I. Introduction Section – Under sub category E. Why is the EPA Taking this Action?


We believe technology can be applied to these engines that will reduce emissions of these harmful pollutants. Manufacturers can reduce two-stroke engine emissions by improving fuel management and calibration. This can be achieved by making improvements to carbureted fuel systems and/or converting to electronic and direct fuel injection. In addition, many of the existing two-stroke engines in these categories can be converted to four-stroke technology. Finally, there are modifications that can be made to four-stroke engines, often short of requiring catalysts, that can reduce emissions even further.

Because 2 and 4 stroke engine are so similar....riiiiiigghhhttttt.

We are not satisfied at this time that two-stroke off-highway motorcycles, particularly those used in competition could meet the 4.0 g/km standard, especially considering the special performance needs of competition motorcycles. Therefore, rather than keeping a 2.0 g/km standard for four-stroke engines and having a standard higher than 4.0 g/km for two-stroke engines (a standard as high as 8.0 g/km might be appropriate), we are using a 4.0 g/km standard that permits averaging. Averaging provides flexibility for manufacturers to bring cleaner two-stroke, particularly cleaner competition two-stroke, engines to market without creating a disincentive to building four-stroke engines. One way of taking advantage of the averaging program in this way would be for a manufacturer to maximize its sales of four-stroke models as part of its sales mix, and average the emissions from these engines against the higher emissions of the two-stroke competition engines which still would need to be much cleaner than if they were unregulated.

Thats how yamaha can still sell a "competition superjet"
 
Location
SW UT
2-strokes are still made in general, go research the E-Tec, it's 2-stroke fuel injected and outperforms a 4-stroke in every aspect as far as I know. Doesn't have to do with emissions so much as one might think.
 

edmoto

Center of nowhere
Location
Wyoming
Sorry, long post. But I spent some time researching the whole “no more stand-ups?“ controversy so I could decide if buying another ski (or two) would be worth it. Here is what I know (your results may vary)…

SX-R 800, 2011 was last year. Due to emissions requirements, carbureted 2 strokes no longer comply. They didn't in the past since 2006, but manufacturers could use emissions credits from their 4 stroke skis to let the SX-R keep going until now. 2012 is the cut off due to nitrous oxide, carbon monoxide and other emission requirements.

SJ 701 2010 was technically the last year, but you can still get a 2011 and 2012 (if you can find one... I've been told only 50 made it stateside from Japan in 2011, don‘t know how many for 2012). 2011-2012 SJ's are sold as "competition only", have no warranty, and no longer have the emission stickers that are mandated for public use (i.e. non-competition use). Meaning that technically, if a water cop knows his regs and the laws, if he caught you riding on a 2011-2012 ski outside of an organized competition, you are riding an illegal watercraft not permitted on public (key word, PUBLIC) waterways.

HSR-Benelli S4 are still being produced, but there is no US distributor. You can buy new stand ups from them all day long from overseas. These boats (while not cheap) can be shipped from Australia, Austria, and several other distributors worldwide. See Benelli-group.com.

However, the future lies in the aftermarket now for stand ups. You can by an SJ or SX-R similar/mimicked hull, or complete stunt hull, from many different companies. Then buy a motor (usually hot-rodded) from DASA, X-Metal, Kommander, etc. Install the still widely available OEM drive/exhaust/etc parts, and have a ski.

So yes, OEM stand ups are done as of 2011 (2012 is when all carbureted 2 strokes no longer pass government emission laws to be produced anymore). The only 4 stroke stand up available is HSR-Benelli, but only if you can pay a good deal for shipping one in from overseas. Hopefully someone in the US will become a distributor soon. And I know some companies like EcoSport ES-1 started developing electric stand ups, but cost considerations for the battery technology probably will have those on hold for a while.

But if you are hungry for a 2 stroke stand up, your choices are 1) used, 2) build one from components, 3) pony up some serious $$$ for a Hydrospace. While the emissions laws state 2 stroke carbed motors can't be produced anymore (per se) as an OEM, there are no laws that say you can't still ride an EXISTING 2 stroke. Aside from eco-greenie exclusionary local laws and ordinances (Lake Tahoe, Lake Mead, so on) that prohibit 2 stroke carbed PWCs specifically, you can still ride your stand up. Just see choices 1, 2, and 3 for how to "get" one.

There is no law stating "Stand Ups" can't be produced, just the 2 stroke carbureted motors can't be. That is why the HSR-Benelli would still be legal to purchase post 2012. If an OEM developed a direct injection 2 stroke, or even their own in-house 4 stroke that met current emission laws, then say hello to the new Kawasaki SX-R 4 stroke, or Yamaha SJ 4 stroke. But given the current economy there is no impetus (in my opinion) for any OEM to design, develop, build and sell a 4 stroke stand up aside from HSR, which is using technology started and evolved from 2005 or so when they first came out. Then there is the little argument you'll get from freeride/freestyle riders about how 4 strokes can't/don't work for their style of riding, but that is somewhat moot since no one is out there trying to make an HSR S4 do double backflip no handed superman knick knacks in competition.

But one interesting issue emerges. OK, 2 stroke carbureted motors are no longer allowed per EPA Marine mandate (their timelines for phasing out 2 stroke carb'd motors are on their web page, and it is specific to types of watercraft like PWCs... there are other categories for larger boats, commercial interests, etc... hence why for the time being at least, people can still buy Evinrude direct injection 2 stroke outboard motors for example). But now A/M companies can build stand ups hulls. But what if they build a boat with a 2 stroke carb motor? Does that mean, just as for Kawi and Yama, that it is not permitted? We shall see. The ban on Lake Mead was specific in denying 2 stroke carb'd motors on their water, and if any more "new OEM" 2 stroke carbed motors were built as of MY 2012, then ALL watercraft would be prohibited on that lake (including the emission compliant 4 stroke sit downs). For those who want to call BS on that, feel free to look it up.

The EPA makes distinctions between PWC, outboard motors, diesel engines, commercial motors and boats, and so on. The elimination of 2 stroke carbed motors in PWCs is specific just to PWCs. That is why you can still buy an Envirude “2 stroke” outboard motor. When the issue of emission controls started, I think the EPA and the vested parties realized they could get more progress in the restriction and elimination of “non-compliant” motors by picking the lowest hanging fruit. An enthusiast community of only a few thousand stand-up riders pales in comparison to the outcry that would have been made if the EPA told the thousands and thousands of fishermen who use outboard 2 stroke motors that their choices would be eliminated by 2012 to 4 strokes only.

On a side note, the argument could be posed that 4 strokes are cleaner, but still pollute. This is true. And the EPA knows this. When they mapped the phase out manufacturing of 2 and 4 stroke engines for PWC, they did it based on the anticipated longevity of a typical motor as used in PWC applications. Water in the motor, corrosion, use and maintenance costs, and the point at which a typical owner would rather replace a PWC that continue fixing it. This has been calculated to be only a few years. Hence, the EPA believes that any current PWC motor will be out of use soon enough, and that continued restrictions and limitations of water based engines for PWCs with regard to emissions, will allow them to keep raising the bar higher. The only thing is, as this forum will attest, 2 stroke motors can be rebuild cost effectively until the sun burns out. As stated before, there is no law that prohibits an EXISTING 2 stroke motor from being used (except for those communities that exercise their local prerogative to prohibit 2 stroke PWCs).

See this link for more info on the emissions standards the EPA outlines:

http://www.epa.gov/nonroad/marine/420f04031.pdf
 
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Sorry, long post. But I spent some time researching the whole “no more stand-ups?“ controversy so I could decide if buying another ski (or two) would be worth it. Here is what I know (your results may vary)…

SX-R 800, 2011 was last year. Due to emissions requirements, carbureted 2 strokes no longer comply. They didn't in the past since 2006, but manufacturers could use emissions credits from their 4 stroke skis to let the SX-R keep going until now. 2012 is the cut off due to nitrous oxide, carbon monoxide and other emission requirements.

SJ 701 2010 was technically the last year, but you can still get a 2011 and 2012 (if you can find one... I've been told only 50 made it stateside from Japan in 2011, don‘t know how many for 2012). 2011-2012 SJ's are sold as "competition only", have no warranty, and no longer have the emission stickers that are mandated for public use (i.e. non-competition use). Meaning that technically, if a water cop knows his regs and the laws, if he caught you riding on a 2011-2012 ski outside of an organized competition, you are riding an illegal watercraft not permitted on public (key word, PUBLIC) waterways.

HSR-Benelli S4 are still being produced, but there is no US distributor. You can buy new stand ups from them all day long from overseas. These boats (while not cheap) can be shipped from Australia, Austria, and several other distributors worldwide. See Benelli-group.com.

However, the future lies in the aftermarket now for stand ups. You can by an SJ or SX-R similar/mimicked hull, or complete stunt hull, from many different companies. Then buy a motor (usually hot-rodded) from DASA, X-Metal, Kommander, etc. Install the still widely available OEM drive/exhaust/etc parts, and have a ski.

So yes, OEM stand ups are done as of 2011 (2012 is when all carbureted 2 strokes no longer pass government emission laws to be produced anymore). The only 4 stroke stand up available is HSR-Benelli, but only if you can pay a good deal for shipping one in from overseas. Hopefully someone in the US will become a distributor soon. And I know some companies like EcoSport ES-1 started developing electric stand ups, but cost considerations for the battery technology probably will have those on hold for a while.

But if you are hungry for a 2 stroke stand up, your choices are 1) used, 2) build one from components, 3) pony up some serious $$$ for a Hydrospace. While the emissions laws state 2 stroke carbed motors can't be produced anymore (per se) as an OEM, there are no laws that say you can't still ride an EXISTING 2 stroke. Aside from eco-greenie exclusionary local laws and ordinances (Lake Tahoe, Lake Mead, so on) that prohibit 2 stroke carbed PWCs specifically, you can still ride your stand up. Just see choices 1, 2, and 3 for how to "get" one.

There is no law stating "Stand Ups" can't be produced, just the 2 stroke carbureted motors can't be. That is why the HSR-Benelli would still be legal to purchase post 2012. If an OEM developed a direct injection 2 stroke, or even their own in-house 4 stroke that met current emission laws, then say hello to the new Kawasaki SX-R 4 stroke, or Yamaha SJ 4 stroke. But given the current economy there is no impetus (in my opinion) for any OEM to design, develop, build and sell a 4 stroke stand up aside from HSR, which is using technology started and evolved from 2005 or so when they first came out. Then there is the little argument you'll get from freeride/freestyle riders about how 4 strokes can't/don't work for their style of riding, but that is somewhat moot since no one is out there trying to make an HSR S4 do double backflip no handed superman knick knacks in competition.

But one interesting issue emerges. OK, 2 stroke carbureted motors are no longer allowed per EPA Marine mandate (their timelines for phasing out 2 stroke carb'd motors are on their web page, and it is specific to types of watercraft like PWCs... there are other categories for larger boats, commercial interests, etc... hence why for the time being at least, people can still buy Evinrude direct injection 2 stroke outboard motors for example). But now A/M companies can build stand ups hulls. But what if they build a boat with a 2 stroke carb motor? Does that mean, just as for Kawi and Yama, that it is not permitted? We shall see. The ban on Lake Mead was specific in denying 2 stroke carb'd motors on their water, and if any more "new OEM" 2 stroke carbed motors were built as of MY 2012, then ALL watercraft would be prohibited on that lake (including the emission compliant 4 stroke sit downs). For those who want to call BS on that, feel free to look it up.

The EPA makes distinctions between PWC, outboard motors, diesel engines, commercial motors and boats, and so on. The elimination of 2 stroke carbed motors in PWCs is specific just to PWCs. That is why you can still buy an Envirude “2 stroke” outboard motor. When the issue of emission controls started, I think the EPA and the vested parties realized they could get more progress in the restriction and elimination of “non-compliant” motors by picking the lowest hanging fruit. An enthusiast community of only a few thousand stand-up riders pales in comparison to the outcry that would have been made if the EPA told the thousands and thousands of fishermen who use outboard 2 stroke motors that their choices would be eliminated by 2012 to 4 strokes only.

On a side note, the argument could be posed that 4 strokes are cleaner, but still pollute. This is true. And the EPA knows this. When they mapped the phase out manufacturing of 2 and 4 stroke engines for PWC, they did it based on the anticipated longevity of a typical motor as used in PWC applications. Water in the motor, corrosion, use and maintenance costs, and the point at which a typical owner would rather replace a PWC that continue fixing it. This has been calculated to be only a few years. Hence, the EPA believes that any current PWC motor will be out of use soon enough, and that continued restrictions and limitations of water based engines for PWCs with regard to emissions, will allow them to keep raising the bar higher. The only thing is, as this forum will attest, 2 stroke motors can be rebuild cost effectively until the sun burns out. As stated before, there is no law that prohibits an EXISTING 2 stroke motor from being used (except for those communities that exercise their local prerogative to prohibit 2 stroke PWCs).

See this link for more info on the emissions standards the EPA outlines:

http://www.epa.gov/nonroad/marine/420f04031.pdf

Awesome!!!!!! thanks a bunch think you just saved me a few hours a research tonight...
 
HSR-Benelli S4 are still being produced, but there is no US distributor
I had never heard of these skis and went on the website. checked the find a local dealer and apparently there is one about 10 minutes from me. I'm assuming they don't import any of the watercrafts though. But the site says they're in Belleville NJ. So maybe if enough people wanted them they would be able to get some.
JCR BENELLI EAST, L.L.C. - Importer

165 Washington Ave, Belleville, NJ 07109
tel: +1 973.751.4545
e-mail: JR.East.Benelli@gmail.com
www.motorcyclemall.com
 

227

Its all about the surf!
Location
Oceanside, CA
The only thing is, as this forum will attest, 2 stroke motors can be rebuild cost effectively until the sun burns out. As stated before, there is no law that prohibits an EXISTING 2 stroke motor from being used (except for those communities that exercise their local prerogative to prohibit 2 stroke PWCs).

This is our "Ace in the pocket" It sucks that the OEM's have stopped production of new models but this won't kill our sport. When will the OEM's stop producing parts is what really concerns me. I can rebuild my motor indefinately as long as I can get parts, and fortunately for us, hulls last for ever
 
Basically every sxr/sj owner need to preserve your ski so that they can be enjoyed by others in the future, and try promote them! i always find myself in heated discussion with someone who just wants a jetski! GET a F****n STANDUP!
 
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