Other WTF is with the arrogance of builders and manufacturers of products for our sport

[infamy]

theres no money is this sport... we are lucky there are any businesses selling to this market.

 

[Sospikey]

theres no money is this sport... we are lucky there are any businesses selling to this market.

The money part may be true, but does that mean that we're supposed to just bend over and get a$$ fked? Spend your hard earned $ with those who actually deliver and stand behind their stuff.

 

[WILKEY]

yea there is no money in it, but ya got 20-30000$$$$$$$$ skis. that makes lots of since. go hit the crack pipe again hahhaahah j j

 

[Mark44]

My back flip socks fit just fine.

Mark44

 

[Don 79 TA]

this is just like aftermarket car parts
funny how OEM stuff is exact, yet aftermarket you have to fiddle with
the other thing to consider, QUALITY (while it has disappeared for quiet sometime in almost all aspects of life) is costly, yet on the other hand it is not, sorta hard to explain
precession engineering is also costly

i know your pain when you buy big $$ items and then you need to modify them like hell to fit
and i totally see the points on the aftermarket hulls. quiet honestly i haven't seen many that impress me, at least for the $$ spent for what you gain, but then again i truly have no idea about the build process and cost involved in constructing one, and yes... everyone needs to eat so to speak and make a profit to stay in business.

 

[sjetrider]

I definately agree that it would be nice for these places to have a QUALITY DEPARTMENT that checks for fit and finish in ANY manufacturing business. Unfortunateley the Volume of aftermarket parts made for this indsutry is LOW and does not warrent extensive testing , re-engineering and so forth. WE ARE the test labs. All you can hope for is that the builder / manufacterer listens when you tell them "hey this part failed here or there" or "this part doesnt fit without modification on my RRP pole or whatever" . There are some time tested parts out there and you can always do your homework and find them to avoid tis. But they may not be the newest and best design available. If I buy a part new to the scene I do expect some issues. I had a new part from a company mentioned in this thread as being TO NOTCH that FAILED miserably whithin 8 weeks. I am not mad at all, I think it will be replaced with a part that will not fail. The head ache SUCKS of having to ship it back and wait and all but I understand that it was a NEW IDEA and I bought in at the beggining and didnt want to wait for some time testing and correcting.
I think Toby makes an AWESOME and AFFORDABLE sleek design chinpad and ride plate. But I will tell you that it is NOT ALWAYS going to fit PERFECT on YOUR pole. It will fit and it will work but there may be some tweaking required. He will tell you this too. But the alternative to most of his parts are to pay near times 2. This is true of other small mfrs. as well. A little teaking on a $150 or less ride plate to me is worth the $100 I saved. Either buy time tested parts and increase the odds of having to tweek them to suite your application or save a few bucks and tweak them to work sometimes.
On the other hand, HULLS, hoods and Motors, pipes, handle poles and Carbs are critical costly parts and I highly suggest doing ALOT of homework before purchasing them. If you have to tweak them you have a problem.
Just my opinion. If you buy a cheap hull you better be ready to do ALOT of tweaking AT BEST.

 

[Peter123]

The idea that the market is too small to have good QA or customer service is BS, IMHO.

Here is a perfect example of how it could be:

I, like many others, decided that I wanted a RN pole on my SN. After reading about FryHazards custom bracket, I contacted him to order one. Here is how it unfolded.

1. I sent an email to FryHazard telling him that I'd like to order one of his brackets.
2. Within a couple of days, he replied telling me that he's not going to do another run yet, but once he has enough interest, he'll do a run. He responded to my email even though there was no immediate money for him. He didn't make any promises he couldn't keep. He didn't ask for a deposit or for me to pay ahead of time for something he knew would not be ready for a few months.
3. A few months later, he sent me an email saying he's going to do a run and wanted to know if I was still interested. Once again, he didn't request any money up front. (Although, I can definitely see many other situations where upfront payment would be required on high dollar items or when something is built to customer spec). He also gave me an ETA of when the part would be ready.
4. Once my bracket was ready, he emailed me and asked for the money so that he could ship it. He charged a very reasonable ship rate.
5. When he received my money, he confirmed it and told me he'd ship it the next day.
6. When packing my part for shipping, he noticed a very minor cosmetic flaw. He emailed me to tell me about it and sent a photo. He gave me the option of accepting it as is, getting my money back or waiting for a new part to arrive a week later. He also appologized for my inconvenience.
7. I accepted the part, because the issue was so incredibly minor. It shipped that same day, and when it arrived, I was very happy with the bracket as well as how it was packaged.

I'm guessing it may have taken him an extra 10 or 15 minutes total for the emails and picture he sent. I'm sure he had better things to do with that 10 to 15 minutes; however, if he ever makes another product that I'm interested in, I'll be going to him first. If anybody ever asks about getting a conversion bracket, I'll be going on and on about how great his customer service is and what a stand up guy he is. And when I see a thread talking about the horrible customer service of some of the builder/suppliers, I'll post about my experience with him.

Sure, this may have been a perfect world scenario, but even if everybody put in half the effort of this, it would make a huge difference.

 

[IS0LD0UT]

Preach on brother. Let's pretend I have 10,000.00 cash to buy a new lightweight hull, my #1 fear is installing all of my parts in it knowing that NOTHING is going to line up correctly(a hull swap should be a 4 hour job), and #2 that the super dooper hull is going to start coming apart the first season. Don't get me started on ALL the rest of the 'bolt on' parts. LOL

Right on. I am looking to buy a AM hull setup and this is one of the things that scares me. Might be better buying a complete ski already put together, but you still have to worry about it falling apart.

 

[B3IS]

Its always fun ordering a package of new goodies, and when they get to you the smile goes away. What fits, what is the right color, whats missing. It is a bummer when your weekend ride is put on hold because of lags on shipping, poor quality control, or just complete ignorance. How do we as the end user or buyer get the quality control we need ??? Being on the X has given me a huge advantage over the normal joe, getting to hear the opinions of a diverse group of riders makes finding a good seller alot easier. Ride on.

 

[sjetrider]

I can see where this was an awesome transaction for you Peter123 and it looks like you were satisfied. If the market was so big then why didnt he have a bunch made on the shelf when you wanted one and already have them through the QUALITY and TESTING department. I agree that good parts and service can be offered in a small market and from a small company, but to manufacture and make REAL $$$$ from these parts would be tough. X-Metal is one of them who has been successfull at doing so. He has a core business that helps in those efforts of quality and design and the 2 businesses go together well. It can be done and profitable but this is an AFTERMARKET business that is no where near what the aftermarket car or racing business is. If you wanted a part NOW instead of being patient you would have had another story to tell.

 

[Matt_E]

I looked at some brand-new aftermarket stuff this weekend that was pitiful.

I also looked at some top-notch stuff that was absolutely flawless.

 

[chriselmore_1]

it's all about supply and demand. There is not that big of a demand. Everything is made in minimal limited runs. Which is why a dasa or xscream 1000cc costs almost twice as much as my gm 5.3L.........

 

[smoofers]

The idea that the market is too small to have good QA or customer service is BS, IMHO.

Here is a perfect example of how it could be:

I, like many others, decided that I wanted a RN pole on my SN. After reading about FryHazards custom bracket, I contacted him to order one. Here is how it unfolded.

1. I sent an email to FryHazard telling him that I'd like to order one of his brackets.
2. Within a couple of days, he replied telling me that he's not going to do another run yet, but once he has enough interest, he'll do a run. He responded to my email even though there was no immediate money for him. He didn't make any promises he couldn't keep. He didn't ask for a deposit or for me to pay ahead of time for something he knew would not be ready for a few months.
3. A few months later, he sent me an email saying he's going to do a run and wanted to know if I was still interested. Once again, he didn't request any money up front. (Although, I can definitely see many other situations where upfront payment would be required on high dollar items or when something is built to customer spec). He also gave me an ETA of when the part would be ready.
4. Once my bracket was ready, he emailed me and asked for the money so that he could ship it. He charged a very reasonable ship rate.
5. When he received my money, he confirmed it and told me he'd ship it the next day.
6. When packing my part for shipping, he noticed a very minor cosmetic flaw. He emailed me to tell me about it and sent a photo. He gave me the option of accepting it as is, getting my money back or waiting for a new part to arrive a week later. He also appologized for my inconvenience.
7. I accepted the part, because the issue was so incredibly minor. It shipped that same day, and when it arrived, I was very happy with the bracket as well as how it was packaged.

I'm guessing it may have taken him an extra 10 or 15 minutes total for the emails and picture he sent. I'm sure he had better things to do with that 10 to 15 minutes; however, if he ever makes another product that I'm interested in, I'll be going to him first. If anybody ever asks about getting a conversion bracket, I'll be going on and on about how great his customer service is and what a stand up guy he is. And when I see a thread talking about the horrible customer service of some of the builder/suppliers, I'll post about my experience with him.

Sure, this may have been a perfect world scenario, but even if everybody put in half the effort of this, it would make a huge difference.

Well put Peter,

to add to praise for Fry Hazard, when we installed the Hazard Bracket on Bill's ski, it fit PERFECT with no modification whatsoever. Perfect example of excellent quality.

 

[sjetrider]

Well put Peter,

to add to praise for Fry Hazard, when we installed the Hazard Bracket on Bill's ski, it fit PERFECT with no modification whatsoever. Perfect example of excellent quality.

Its awesome that there are people in this sport willing to do things like this. I gaurantee Fry Hazard is not getting rich of of these brackets but does it more for the sport than the $$$$$$. There are some of these guys around and I so recomend supporting that when ever possible. I have seen the Hazard bracket and it is a work of art BTW. No other conversion bracket compares. The last square I did I used a home made stainless bracket and did the extra work to save the extra $100 then wished I had bought his LOL. It worked but was no where near the set up his is looks and function wise. KEEFER bought one soon thereafter and I was like DAYUM I shoulda go one of those. I was also in a time crunch though.

Anyway, I think there is a line between quality and price too. Buy a RRP chin pad for like $289 and it bolts right up without a tweak or buy a Toby RRP pad that (IMO) looks better and sleaker for $150, but you may have to tweak it for 30 minuntes and you may not have to. Its your choice. X-Metal chin pad for $150 and pop right on or a X-Metal (better design IMO) chin pad for $125 and drill 2 holes (10 more Mins>). You decide. If I paid $150 for a nice plate and had to tweak it (without destroying it) I would be ok with that. But if I had paid $200 or $250 then I would be FLAMING MAD if I had to take a dremel to it at all.

Just my opinion, you should get what you pay for and know what to expect for what you are paying, bottom line.

 

[Peter123]

Its awesome that there are people in this sport willing to do things like this. I gaurantee Fry Hazard is not getting rich of of these brackets but does it more for the sport than the $$$$$$.

Like I said, that was kind of the perfect world result for the situation.

But please keep in mind that although I was thrilled with the product and fact that the part needs no tweaking, the point of my post was his communication, honesty and timeliness in what he could control.

He returned emails in a reasonable period of time. He returned my first one in two or three days. Unless you're a one man shop (which actually he is I believe) in the middle of a crisis or on vacation, you should be able to get back to a customer within a week, if not a few days.

He told me up front about the long delay in getting the part. Sure, some people may want it now, but if you can't deliver it to them now, at least let them know that, which he did.

He inspected his part. Sure, you might miss something, but at least look it over and try to catch a potential problem. From many of the stories I've read here, it certainly appears that some people pack their parts blindfolded before shipping.

Speaking of shipping, he packed it well. How many times have we read about parts dropped in boxes with virtually no packing material?

When he saw there was a problem, he offered me different ways to correct it.

I also understand that some parts will need tweaking, but it would be nice if customers knew that up front. Additionally, we know what acceptable tweaking is and what is not acceptable, and we've seen plenty of pictures of the latter.

If you are tyring to make your living, or a partial living, by supplying these aftermarket parts, you can actually charge a bit more if people know you'll communicate with them and be honest with them.

Think about it, if you could buy the same part from company A for $550 or company B for $500, and you knew that company A would return your phone calls/emails, inspect your part, deliver when promised and offer remedies when issues occur but company B had a reputation of not returning calls/emails, inspecting your part, delivering as promised or working with you on problems, wouldn't you spend the extra $50? I know I would. And if I couldn't afford that extra $50, I probably can't afford the part to begin with.

Good business CAN be more profitable than poor business.

 

[sjetrider]

Customer service is an entirely different issue. Poor quality is bad customer service I agree. But good quality without communication or service is an entirely different type of frustration.
There are a few companies that offer both in this industry and just as many that offer one or the other.
Same goes for most industries really.

 

[WILKEY]

if customer service sucks and quality sucks well my friend then you have a sucky business. kinda like this guy W well you get the point

 

[SJBrit]

Here's the thing though guys: every time we tweak and grind and reinforce and bend the parts we are buying to make them fit/work, we are perpetuating the problem. A commercial transaction is about exchanging money for value. You make a judgement upfront about whether the price asked fits with the value you place on the item and then you buy one. If you have to rework it when you get it, then the value has reduced. That is something you should take up with the service provider. If I buy something from Best Buy and it doesn't work as advertized, I take it back for a replacement or a refund. If the service isn't good at dinner I don't leave much of a tip. If my rideplate holes don't line up on the hull I was promised it would fit, then I should send it back!

If the manufacturers start to get returns on poor quality items or sales start to drop then they will increase their quality. If they don't, they won't. Just like the waiter won't give you better service next time if you give him a great tip for lazy service - you're sending the wrong message. You can't complain about poor quality if you don't complain about poor quality....

 

[motobehrens]

I know I've sent a couple parts back to a particular company because their stuff was either poorly made with crap welds or didn't line up properly or just flat out didn't fit right. Most of their stuff has been spot on over the years but some of their stuff just doesn't cut it. They refunded my money each time no questions asked, but it's very frustrating to see what you want online, order it, expect it to be perfect since it is from a reputable company, then find out some of their stuff is sub-standard. But i've noticed in other peoples posts that if you say anything negative about this particular company, you get half a dozen guys telling you there's nothing wrong and that said company supports events, riders, etc. like the rest of us are just supposed to ignore the poor quality because a company is huge in the industry.

It's too bad there isn't a GYTR, Genuine Yamaha Technology Racing division for superjets. Then stuff would be made right. Aftermarket stuff straight from the factory.

 

[kevbo]

All of the A/M composite parts that I have examined are clearly made for looks more than anything else. You have to get below that shiney gell coat or top layer of carbon, then everything turns to crap. Think of all these parts as being made by someone in their garage. How many of them are master craftsman using good/expensive materials vs someone trying to make the most $$$ he can for his time/effort. All this knowing that its a one time sale, no repeat business.