Byeai
"Cheetos-Man"
- Location
- Melbourne FL
Over a year on one of mine
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Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk
Freestyle AntiGravity Autopsy pics
- Thread starter Aquaholic
- Start date
Mikee, you need the Optimate charger. Plug it in, walk away.
Last edited:
mike b
Michael "Mayhem" Bevacqua aka MikeyChan
- Location
- California
Yep I think same one as Matt had last year right?
- Location
- jacksonville florida
i just bought the battery tender battery. I will see how it holds up in the surf
- Location
- Charlotte NC
I've been running the advance auto lithiums this year, been through 2 lpf2 and now on my first lp4. Some how every time I take them back to get warrantied they start the warranty over, good for a year. Seemed like the easiest route since they are every where and I don't have to ship it back for replacement.
Philip Clemmons
Owner, P&P Performance
- Location
- Richmond, Va
I've watched optimates kill batteries. There are better chargers out there. Any charger that "automatically" adjusts to any battery size is less than ideal. Additionally, battery health cannot be determined by voltage on a LiFePo4 battery. With the proper charger, you can take better care of the battery, AND get data every charge on overall health and condition. We've had excellent luck with our systems, with a few miss to ensure they stay dry. Most of my flatwater customers are getting 1-2 years out of them. I purchased two 16 cells for customers in Nov 2013. Both are still going strong in customer boats.
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Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
- Location
- La Crosse, WI on the BIG River
I've been running a WPS for a year now. The battery indicator at the top started going early summer, now it doesn't even light up.
I've drained the battery twice by leaving the bilge on. We charged it up at 30amps for about 7 minutes and rode the rest of the day with no issues.
I've drained the battery twice by leaving the bilge on. We charged it up at 30amps for about 7 minutes and rode the rest of the day with no issues.
Yes, I bought Matt's Optimate.
Like Phil said, there are more precise chargers out there, that will return data on each cell's health and balance individual cells. So far, some guys in our group are on their second season with their PHP Ballistic batteries using Optimate chargers. This is my first Lithium battery in a ski, so I will try to update this thread on any issues and the longevity.
@Philip Clemmons are you using an R/C charger to balance your individual cells? I've considered trying this, as I have Lipo car packs that are over 5 years old and still balance out close to perfect every charge. My R/C charger has a LIFE setting, but it only goes up to 6 cells
speedysprocket
Alex
- Location
- Chesapeake, VA
While an Anti Gravity battery may say 12 or 16 or 20 cells, they organized (combination of series and parallel) such that it behaves as a 4 cell. So set your RC charger to 4 cells (should be 12.x volts) and charge away. There's also no balance port on the AG so you can't get individual cell health. Makes it simpler for charging.Yes, I bought Matt's Optimate.
Like Phil said, there are more precise chargers out there, that will return data on each cell's health and balance individual cells. So far, some guys in our group are on their second season with their PHP Ballistic batteries using Optimate chargers. This is my first Lithium battery in a ski, so I will try to update this thread on any issues and the longevity.
View attachment 293126
@Philip Clemmons are you using an R/C charger to balance your individual cells? I've considered trying this, as I have Lipo car packs that are over 5 years old and still balance out close to perfect every charge. My R/C charger has a LIFE setting, but it only goes up to 6 cells
I use the iCharger and have gone through about one charger and one AG battery per year for the last three years... I've always had some sort of warranty help on each replacement, though, with @Philip Clemmons' help.
Whatever you do- don't run the battery low and don't use a lead acid charger, to include a Battery Tender charger!
Philip Clemmons
Owner, P&P Performance
- Location
- Richmond, Va
Batteries...........................
The batteries we use in our skis are typically referred to as 16 Cell, 20 Cell, etc. As Alex said, the combination of cells is configured to show a 4 cell pack. The proper term is 4S4P for a 16 cell and 4S5P for a 20, and so on. What this means is 4 cells in series (voltage adds in series, so four cells @ 3.6 Volts=14.4 VDC), and 4 cells in parallel (current adds in parallel, so four cells @120 burst amps=480 CCA), in the case of a 16 cell AG. In short, we will always use some combination of 4 cells in series, because we operate at about 13 VDC. A 3 cell string in series would yield 10.8 V (too low), and a 5 cell string in series would yield 18V (too high). Therefore the 4 cells yielding a completed charge voltage of 14.4 V is our best bet. Note that this voltage drops off to 13.7 or so almost immediately after the charger shuts off, and this is normal for the chemistry of the LiFe cells. Its also critical to note that the cells drop to about 13.3 V under load almost immediately, and hold that voltage right up until they are dead, and thus "fall off the cliff". What this means is your battery will always read (approximately) the same voltage from the moment it comes off charge until the moment it wont crank your ski. There is typically no warning. You cannot accurately tell state of charge by Voltage with LiFe cells. Anyone who says you can does not understand this battery chemistry. So how do you tell? Battery capacity. You need to know the capacity of the cells (in mah), and then you can measure how many mah (milli amps hours) you are putting back in (with the proper charger). A 10,000 mah battery that takes 5000 mah on charge was discharged 50%. While this info is not practical for pwc use (most of the time), it can be useful to determine battery condition. This requires some advanced functions in the charger and careful use, but it can give you a very good idea about the overall health of your battery. Ideally we should charge at the end of each day of riding. By watching how many mah we put in and comparing to how many tanks we used, we can also get an estimated usage per tank. For example, if we ride two tanks and recharge, and put 1000 mah back in, we are using 500 per tank. On a 10,000 mah battery, thats 20 tanks of fuel. This is just an example/estimate, but it is very useful information. Also, if you are consistently using 500 per tank, and then all of a sudden you are using 750 per tank, you have some issue that needs to be addressed. It could be a dragging starter, etc, but its a clue to start looking.
Chargers...........................
Lets not kid ourselves...............the Powersports industry stole this technology from the Radio control market. Ive been flying RC models for the last 10 plus years, and this technology has been around at least that long. The charger technology has continued to evolve, as has the chemistry in the cells, but this is old RC technology. The technology in the RC market far exceeds what most of the powersports companies are offering in the line of chargers. Remember though, as with anything, you get what you pay for. Super cheap ebay/amazon chargers can damage batteries (more on that next). A final note on chargers..............................All lithium cells use a CC/CV charge algorithm. What this means is that they apply a set current until a set voltage is reached, then they maintain that peak voltage as current is reduced, and the charge terminated. A lead acid charger does not work this way, nor does a battery tender (although there do appear to be LiFe specific battery tender brand chargers). No lithium battery should ever be trickle charged.
Charge rates......................
Charge rates are determined mathematically by looking at the cells capacity and its "C" rating. Almost any Lithium cell can be safely charged at "1C", or 1 times the capacity. That means on a 10,000 mah battery, it can be charged at 10 amps. (10,000ma-10A). This can get confusing, especially in cases of parallel cells, as you have to factor in the amount of cells in parallel to get the correct number. As a general rule, 5 amps for a 16 cell or 20 cell ski battery is very safe, and provides reasonable charge time and no long term harm to the cells.
Chemistries.........................
Everyone typiclly hears Lithium and thinks......LIPO, FIRE, DANGEROUS, ETC! Well, thats kind of true. Read on................
There are three main chemistries of Lithium cells. See below for a description of each.
LiPo-Lithium Polymer-these are the most energy dense (most power, less weight) cells out there, but it comes with a price. They are the most sensitive to charging, and are the most dangerous when they fail. Most horror stories you have heard about Lithium batteries have been about LiPos.
LiIo-Lithium Ion-These are you newer drill batteries, cordless tool batteries, etc. They are very robust, but are much heavier compared to LiPo's. They are also less finicky, thus their common use in power tools.
LiFe (LiFePo4, A123)-Lithium Iron Phosphate-These cells are a patented variation of the LiIo cell. While very similar, the actual chemistry in the cells is very different. These are the cells we use in our ski batteries. Most of the cells that all of the manufacturers are using are identical. The difference is the case they are installing them in. These are very robust and dependable, and are very safe.
All three of these require different charging algorithms, as the chemistry requires different voltages during the charge cycle. Just because its a lithium charger does not mean its correct for the battery you are charging. The charger chemistry must match the cell chemistry.
Continued below..................................
The batteries we use in our skis are typically referred to as 16 Cell, 20 Cell, etc. As Alex said, the combination of cells is configured to show a 4 cell pack. The proper term is 4S4P for a 16 cell and 4S5P for a 20, and so on. What this means is 4 cells in series (voltage adds in series, so four cells @ 3.6 Volts=14.4 VDC), and 4 cells in parallel (current adds in parallel, so four cells @120 burst amps=480 CCA), in the case of a 16 cell AG. In short, we will always use some combination of 4 cells in series, because we operate at about 13 VDC. A 3 cell string in series would yield 10.8 V (too low), and a 5 cell string in series would yield 18V (too high). Therefore the 4 cells yielding a completed charge voltage of 14.4 V is our best bet. Note that this voltage drops off to 13.7 or so almost immediately after the charger shuts off, and this is normal for the chemistry of the LiFe cells. Its also critical to note that the cells drop to about 13.3 V under load almost immediately, and hold that voltage right up until they are dead, and thus "fall off the cliff". What this means is your battery will always read (approximately) the same voltage from the moment it comes off charge until the moment it wont crank your ski. There is typically no warning. You cannot accurately tell state of charge by Voltage with LiFe cells. Anyone who says you can does not understand this battery chemistry. So how do you tell? Battery capacity. You need to know the capacity of the cells (in mah), and then you can measure how many mah (milli amps hours) you are putting back in (with the proper charger). A 10,000 mah battery that takes 5000 mah on charge was discharged 50%. While this info is not practical for pwc use (most of the time), it can be useful to determine battery condition. This requires some advanced functions in the charger and careful use, but it can give you a very good idea about the overall health of your battery. Ideally we should charge at the end of each day of riding. By watching how many mah we put in and comparing to how many tanks we used, we can also get an estimated usage per tank. For example, if we ride two tanks and recharge, and put 1000 mah back in, we are using 500 per tank. On a 10,000 mah battery, thats 20 tanks of fuel. This is just an example/estimate, but it is very useful information. Also, if you are consistently using 500 per tank, and then all of a sudden you are using 750 per tank, you have some issue that needs to be addressed. It could be a dragging starter, etc, but its a clue to start looking.
Chargers...........................
Lets not kid ourselves...............the Powersports industry stole this technology from the Radio control market. Ive been flying RC models for the last 10 plus years, and this technology has been around at least that long. The charger technology has continued to evolve, as has the chemistry in the cells, but this is old RC technology. The technology in the RC market far exceeds what most of the powersports companies are offering in the line of chargers. Remember though, as with anything, you get what you pay for. Super cheap ebay/amazon chargers can damage batteries (more on that next). A final note on chargers..............................All lithium cells use a CC/CV charge algorithm. What this means is that they apply a set current until a set voltage is reached, then they maintain that peak voltage as current is reduced, and the charge terminated. A lead acid charger does not work this way, nor does a battery tender (although there do appear to be LiFe specific battery tender brand chargers). No lithium battery should ever be trickle charged.
Charge rates......................
Charge rates are determined mathematically by looking at the cells capacity and its "C" rating. Almost any Lithium cell can be safely charged at "1C", or 1 times the capacity. That means on a 10,000 mah battery, it can be charged at 10 amps. (10,000ma-10A). This can get confusing, especially in cases of parallel cells, as you have to factor in the amount of cells in parallel to get the correct number. As a general rule, 5 amps for a 16 cell or 20 cell ski battery is very safe, and provides reasonable charge time and no long term harm to the cells.
Chemistries.........................
Everyone typiclly hears Lithium and thinks......LIPO, FIRE, DANGEROUS, ETC! Well, thats kind of true. Read on................
There are three main chemistries of Lithium cells. See below for a description of each.
LiPo-Lithium Polymer-these are the most energy dense (most power, less weight) cells out there, but it comes with a price. They are the most sensitive to charging, and are the most dangerous when they fail. Most horror stories you have heard about Lithium batteries have been about LiPos.
LiIo-Lithium Ion-These are you newer drill batteries, cordless tool batteries, etc. They are very robust, but are much heavier compared to LiPo's. They are also less finicky, thus their common use in power tools.
LiFe (LiFePo4, A123)-Lithium Iron Phosphate-These cells are a patented variation of the LiIo cell. While very similar, the actual chemistry in the cells is very different. These are the cells we use in our ski batteries. Most of the cells that all of the manufacturers are using are identical. The difference is the case they are installing them in. These are very robust and dependable, and are very safe.
All three of these require different charging algorithms, as the chemistry requires different voltages during the charge cycle. Just because its a lithium charger does not mean its correct for the battery you are charging. The charger chemistry must match the cell chemistry.
Continued below..................................
Last edited:
Philip Clemmons
Owner, P&P Performance
- Location
- Richmond, Va
Balancing................................
Lithium cells are very voltage sensitive. When you run cells in series, the charger looks for the total end voltage. For example, lets say we have a 6V system, and (2) 3V cells in series. Each cell should be charged to 3v, thus yielding a 6V output. If the charger only looks at the total voltage, it does not know what the individual cells are contributing. So, if one cell is 3V and the other is 2V, the charger will keep charging until it sees 6V. This is a problem, because the cells should never exceed (for example) 3V. Now the good cell is being overcharged to compensate for the bad cell. You may end up with 4V and 2V, and two damaged cells This is where balancing comes in. There are separate voltage taps pulled off of each of the 4 cells, so that the charger can monitor each cell individually. It will stop charging the cell that has reached its peak voltage, and continue bringing up the ones that are low. This requires two things-a balancing charger, AND a balance connection on the battery itself.
The Ballistic batteries are the only Lithiums in the powersports market that have a balance port. However, there are two issues with this. The biggest issue is this port is a primary location for a water leak that can kill the battery. In a perfect world, its preferable to balance LiFe cells. In my personal experience, of the 5-6 ballistics Ive owned or sold to customers, none have lasted more that a few weeks due to water intrusion, most likely from the balance port. But there is a second issue here too. We have a 16 cell battery, yet only balance 4 cells? That because the charger on sees the cells that contribute to voltage, not current. (This is why we always set the chargers to 4S or 4 cell) So it sees our configuration of 4 in series, but does not see the cells in parallel. There are actually 4 cells in parallel for every one in series. This means that the voltage the charger sees as a single cell in 4S mode is actually the average of the 4 cells in parallel. So what? Well, if you have a 3V cell (example), and you have 3V, 3V, 3V, and 1V. Total voltage is seen as 2.5V due to the low cell, The charger will keep charging that bank until it sees 3V total, thus overcharging the other 3 cells, even though it is being "balanced". The balancing on the ballistics is not a true individual cell balance, but a balancing of the 4 "banks" of cells. There is still the potential for over/under charging.
Its worth noting as well that any charger that claims it "balances" cells without having the separate balance connection is misrepresenting its capabilities (and we know thats common in marketing). There is such thing as an equilaiztion charge, where a charger will apply a low, constant voltage over an extended period of time. This (hopefully) allows the cell voltages to even out. This method does nothing to any of the individual cells-it can't. Its not connected to anything but the final output of all of the cells. This is not a balancing charge and should not be confused as such!
Failures........................
So why do so many people have issues? Well, the short answer is lack of education and user error. There were companies out there selling Lithium batteries, yet stating that they could be safely charged with lead acid trickle chargers. This is simply not true and never has been. My guess is these are cases of "middle men" selling a product with their label, that is engineered/manufactured somewhere else. Ive called certain battery manufacturers and asked for cell capacity info, and they couldn't answer me. Again, I'm not sure they knew......................
1-Lithiums are very voltage sensitive. Proper charging is a must, and not running them down below 11 volts is also a must.
2-Proper chargers are required, period.
3-Proper mounting is important. A properly secured battery will last longer.
4-Water intrusion will kill a battery. It allows it to self discharge, and it usually wont recharge afterwards. Don't submerge you batteries if you can help it. I always mount mine where there there is no water build up, and if I get excessive water in the ski, I drain it immediately. While these batteries are advertised as waterproof, they are not rated for submersion.
With proper charging, and proper mounting, if you keep the water out, they should live. Most of the time. There will always be failures and exceptions to the rules, but my experience, and that of my customers, has been very positive. Education and tech support is part of every sale. That said, I rarely see issues, nor due my customers. I prefer the AG because is it sealed better than the others I have tested (pretty much all of them). Thats my go to battery, and what we have used in our world finals competition boats for the last two years. I dont sell or recommend what I wont run personally.
I hope this helps to clear up some of the "black magic" surrounding the lithium batteries we use in our skis.
Phil
Lithium cells are very voltage sensitive. When you run cells in series, the charger looks for the total end voltage. For example, lets say we have a 6V system, and (2) 3V cells in series. Each cell should be charged to 3v, thus yielding a 6V output. If the charger only looks at the total voltage, it does not know what the individual cells are contributing. So, if one cell is 3V and the other is 2V, the charger will keep charging until it sees 6V. This is a problem, because the cells should never exceed (for example) 3V. Now the good cell is being overcharged to compensate for the bad cell. You may end up with 4V and 2V, and two damaged cells
This is where balancing comes in. There are separate voltage taps pulled off of each of the 4 cells, so that the charger can monitor each cell individually. It will stop charging the cell that has reached its peak voltage, and continue bringing up the ones that are low. This requires two things-a balancing charger, AND a balance connection on the battery itself.The Ballistic batteries are the only Lithiums in the powersports market that have a balance port. However, there are two issues with this. The biggest issue is this port is a primary location for a water leak that can kill the battery. In a perfect world, its preferable to balance LiFe cells. In my personal experience, of the 5-6 ballistics Ive owned or sold to customers, none have lasted more that a few weeks due to water intrusion, most likely from the balance port. But there is a second issue here too. We have a 16 cell battery, yet only balance 4 cells? That because the charger on sees the cells that contribute to voltage, not current. (This is why we always set the chargers to 4S or 4 cell) So it sees our configuration of 4 in series, but does not see the cells in parallel. There are actually 4 cells in parallel for every one in series. This means that the voltage the charger sees as a single cell in 4S mode is actually the average of the 4 cells in parallel. So what? Well, if you have a 3V cell (example), and you have 3V, 3V, 3V, and 1V. Total voltage is seen as 2.5V due to the low cell, The charger will keep charging that bank until it sees 3V total, thus overcharging the other 3 cells, even though it is being "balanced". The balancing on the ballistics is not a true individual cell balance, but a balancing of the 4 "banks" of cells. There is still the potential for over/under charging.
Its worth noting as well that any charger that claims it "balances" cells without having the separate balance connection is misrepresenting its capabilities (and we know thats common in marketing). There is such thing as an equilaiztion charge, where a charger will apply a low, constant voltage over an extended period of time. This (hopefully) allows the cell voltages to even out. This method does nothing to any of the individual cells-it can't. Its not connected to anything but the final output of all of the cells. This is not a balancing charge and should not be confused as such!
Failures........................
So why do so many people have issues? Well, the short answer is lack of education and user error. There were companies out there selling Lithium batteries, yet stating that they could be safely charged with lead acid trickle chargers. This is simply not true and never has been. My guess is these are cases of "middle men" selling a product with their label, that is engineered/manufactured somewhere else. Ive called certain battery manufacturers and asked for cell capacity info, and they couldn't answer me. Again, I'm not sure they knew......................
1-Lithiums are very voltage sensitive. Proper charging is a must, and not running them down below 11 volts is also a must.
2-Proper chargers are required, period.
3-Proper mounting is important. A properly secured battery will last longer.
4-Water intrusion will kill a battery. It allows it to self discharge, and it usually wont recharge afterwards. Don't submerge you batteries if you can help it. I always mount mine where there there is no water build up, and if I get excessive water in the ski, I drain it immediately. While these batteries are advertised as waterproof, they are not rated for submersion.
With proper charging, and proper mounting, if you keep the water out, they should live. Most of the time. There will always be failures and exceptions to the rules, but my experience, and that of my customers, has been very positive. Education and tech support is part of every sale. That said, I rarely see issues, nor due my customers. I prefer the AG because is it sealed better than the others I have tested (pretty much all of them). Thats my go to battery, and what we have used in our world finals competition boats for the last two years. I dont sell or recommend what I wont run personally.
I hope this helps to clear up some of the "black magic" surrounding the lithium batteries we use in our skis.
Phil
waksk8
Site Supporter
- Location
- Jacksonville TX
@Philip Clemmons could you recommend a good charger?
Philip Clemmons
Owner, P&P Performance
- Location
- Richmond, Va
Of course. I'm working on a deal with my nephew, who is a volume dealer on the rc side of things. I'll update when I get final numbers.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
chadman154
#Itsonlymoney !!!!!
- Location
- Dirty south
My PHP ballastic has been running great on a optimate charger!!!! Text me if you have any other questions
cookn
Kamikaze
- Location
- where you live
This is all good stuff to hear. We experienced the same thing with the shorai batteries a few years back and everyone just gave up on them. I dabbled in the RC world for a bit and had a quality charger for LiFe, and Lipo's and couldn't understand how they were saying you can charge the shorai with a trickle charger....now I know the truth. I currently run the smallest agm battery that walmart sells. I think its everstart brand ES-4LBS and they are really cheap, just under 60Cad and its advertised at 3 lbs. I have never weighed one buts Its smaller then the etx9 and I had one last 3 seasons before it snapped the negative terminal off, it was still holding its charge. I don't run total loss but I would think this battery would be too small for non charging systems
@Philip Clemmons Thank you for explaining the batteries, chargers and reasons for failure. Hopefully everyone interested in running these lithium batteries takes the time to read and digest this information.
Let me know when you have a charger available, I now realize that the process the Optimate is using is wrong. So is the last 12 hours the Optimate runs a "load test" and recharge, their way of equalizing/blanancing the cells?
Let me know when you have a charger available, I now realize that the process the Optimate is using is wrong. So is the last 12 hours the Optimate runs a "load test" and recharge, their way of equalizing/blanancing the cells?
Philip Clemmons
Owner, P&P Performance
- Location
- Richmond, Va
I have don't have a big issue with the Optimate, but I've seen guys have issues while using them. They can't however balance cells without a balance connector. No charger can do that. Cell equilization charges can help to equalize cells, but should not be confused with balancing. Voltage is potential difference. By nature, a cells with higher voltage will try and pass voltage (electrons) to a cell with lower voltage. Applying a low current, slightly higher than normal voltage can help cells to equalize. The difference from balancing is that balancing turns off the charge on the cells that are charged, and continues to to charge the low ones. In an equitation charge, it applies voltage to all cells in hopes that they equalize.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
- Location
- San Francisco
Hey Aquaholic, were there any electronics inside or are the cells wired directly to the outer terminals? From what I can see from your photos it looks like the latter, just want to confirm. Nice pictures by the way and thanks for posting them!
- Location
- United Kingdom
Ive been running 3x 16 cell ballistic batteries for the last 3 years. Had the BMS ports on all 3 stop working over this period. Just sealed them up with 1211 and just charge them at 5amps as cant balance the cells now. Will have to try the 4cell option on the ballistic charger. Been charging on 3s.
Aquaholic
World's Oldest Teenager
- Location
- San Diego, CA.
Hey Aquaholic, were there any electronics inside or are the cells wired directly to the outer terminals? From what I can see from your photos it looks like the latter, just want to confirm. Nice pictures by the way and thanks for posting them!
No electronics that I could see inside. Just flimsy, sub par materials and half ass craftmanship.
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