ATP epic

[Harbor]

I'd really like to try the new one in a complete setup with a TBM wheel. Kudos to ATP for a fine product.

Unfortunately it turns out @ this time the HX3 and TBM are incompatible, the magnets in the flywheel are such that the HX3 spark count, spark voltage output and timing curve are adversely affected.

The 117 flash is designed to help but just is not enough

Airtime is no longer offering the selection "TBM or OE flywheel" drop down menu when ordering the HX3 on their web site

The HX3 works great and is designed for the OE flywheel

Both are great products on their own

I love my HX3 and lightened OE flywheel combo so far. Way quicker engine starting, I used to have a longer than normal crank time on restarts. Super easy to connect too and tune my timing curve. A lot of brapp for the buck right here!!!!
Great product,,,ATP!!!!

 

[ScottS]

Unfortunately it turns out @ this time the HX3 and TBM are incompatible, the magnets in the flywheel are such that the HX3 spark count, spark voltage output and timing curve are adversely affected.

The 117 flash is designed to help but just is not enough

Airtime is no longer offering the selection "TBM or OE flywheel" drop down menu when ordering the HX3 on their web site

The HX3 works great and is designed for the OE flywheel

Both are great products on their own

I love my HX3 and lightened OE flywheel combo so far. Way quicker engine starting, I used to have a longer than normal crank time on restarts. Super easy to connect too and tune my timing curve. A lot of brapp for the buck right here!!!!
Great product,,,ATP!!!!

Say what, I'm running the HX3 with a TBM flywheel without issues. You must have an old TBM RRP labeled flywheel, they don't work with either of the Epic's, the new style do....

 

[Harbor]

Say what, I'm running the HX3 with a TBM flywheel without issues. You must have an old TBM RRP labeled flywheel, they don't work with either of the Epic's, the new style do....

Sorry but I do not have an old TBM, bought new in nov 2012. Also another member with a TBM from latest batch of flywheels had the same issue. I have videos and Chris at airtime was in the loop on the issue. He cannot account for irregularities in the flywheel magnets. I wish it could have worked the issue cost me a lot of time and money. Good to hear yours is working. You can check the web site you'll see it's not offered as compatible.

 

[Waveblaster785]

Could all of these flywheel issues be resolved with a timing light and some changing of the tune, or the use of the offset feature?

 

[Harbor]

Could all of these flywheel issues be resolved with a timing light and some changing of the tune, or the use of the offset feature?

Well I wondered the same thing, first found changing and tuning the curves did not eliminate the issue. So I bought a degree wheel, positive piston stop, timing tap, a front cover to cut, I determined true TDC, made a bolt on pointer, installed my tap and started examining the timing with a light and a flat curve of 21 deg. Found timing did not hold 21 deg and was all over the place, but had a more prominant 10 deg retard in the 1500 to 3k range. Next I used the offset with no improvment to fantom 10 deg retard. Next I mapped the timing as it changed and recorded it on paper thern drew a custom curve to compensate for the irregular timing, re-tested found fantom retard still their, Next I drew a square wave curve to test and found the HX3 followed it exactly, now Iam like this make no sense and is inconclusive, maybe their is something else besides timing occureing that iam missing. Next I installed an ocilliscope and measured spark voltage and examined its wave form, spark KV at idle speed 11,000 volts and 22,000 during a no load snap throttle test, wave form revealed that not every spark was reaching this voltage, some spark firing lines were only 1000kv. Next I did a cranking spark test and this was really revealing, after the start phase, I found that spark did not occure at every TDC of the piston, approximately 4 spark events in 10 piston TDC's accompained with a thin blue spark. Next I installed an OE flywheel and re-performed the above tests with exception of the scope test. The HX3 held the timing true to the curve no matter where i drew it, the HX3 followed that curve exactly. Did another Spark test, found spark occures at every TDC event and has a thick, bright yellow spark that when video was taken you could see the blue spark inside the yellow spark.

These tests were not perfomed under load, the engine runs fine on the stand, but symtoms become noticable while on the trailer under load or while water testing so we could have even more annomalies

Chris and Lisa at AirTime were very helpfull during all of this and went over my flywheels type and age early on, we tried the OE, 116 & 117 flashes too. Chris is the one who suggested trying an OE flywheel, kudos to him.

My MSD and Pro Tec cdi's worked fine with that TBM flywheel.
The HX3 works great with a lightened OE flywheel.

Just a heads up

 

[waxhead]

Well I wondered the same thing, first found changing and tuning the curves did not eliminate the issue. So I bought a degree wheel, positive piston stop, timing tap, a front cover to cut, I determined true TDC, made a bolt on pointer, installed my tap and started examining the timing with a light and a flat curve of 21 deg. Found timing did not hold 21 deg and was all over the place, but had a more prominant 10 deg retard in the 1500 to 3k range. Next I used the offset with no improvment to fantom 10 deg retard. Next I mapped the timing as it changed and recorded it on paper thern drew a custom curve to compensate for the irregular timing, re-tested found fantom retard still their, Next I drew a square wave curve to test and found the HX3 followed it exactly, now Iam like this make no sense and is inconclusive, maybe their is something else besides timing occureing that iam missing. Next I installed an ocilliscope and measured spark voltage and examined its wave form, spark KV at idle speed 11,000 volts and 22,000 during a no load snap throttle test, wave form revealed that not every spark was reaching this voltage, some spark firing lines were only 1000kv. Next I did a cranking spark test and this was really revealing, after the start phase, I found that spark did not occure at every TDC of the piston, approximately 4 spark events in 10 piston TDC's accompained with a thin blue spark. Next I installed an OE flywheel and re-performed the above tests with exception of the scope test. The HX3 held the timing true to the curve no matter where i drew it, the HX3 followed that curve exactly. Did another Spark test, found spark occures at every TDC event and has a thick, bright yellow spark that when video was taken you could see the blue spark inside the yellow spark.

These tests were not perfomed under load, the engine runs fine on the stand, but symtoms become noticable while on the trailer under load or while water testing so we could have even more annomalies

Chris and Lisa at AirTime were very helpfull during all of this and went over my flywheels type and age early on, we tried the OE, 116 & 117 flashes too. Chris is the one who suggested trying an OE flywheel, kudos to him.

My MSD and Pro Tec cdi's worked fine with that TBM flywheel.
The HX3 works great with a lightened OE flywheel.

Just a heads up

Now thats a well written report

 

[Waveblaster785]

Well I wondered the same thing, first found changing and tuning the curves did not eliminate the issue. So I bought a degree wheel, positive piston stop, timing tap, a front cover to cut, I determined true TDC, made a bolt on pointer, installed my tap and started examining the timing with a light and a flat curve of 21 deg. Found timing did not hold 21 deg and was all over the place, but had a more prominant 10 deg retard in the 1500 to 3k range. Next I used the offset with no improvment to fantom 10 deg retard. Next I mapped the timing as it changed and recorded it on paper thern drew a custom curve to compensate for the irregular timing, re-tested found fantom retard still their, Next I drew a square wave curve to test and found the HX3 followed it exactly, now Iam like this make no sense and is inconclusive, maybe their is something else besides timing occureing that iam missing. Next I installed an ocilliscope and measured spark voltage and examined its wave form, spark KV at idle speed 11,000 volts and 22,000 during a no load snap throttle test, wave form revealed that not every spark was reaching this voltage, some spark firing lines were only 1000kv. Next I did a cranking spark test and this was really revealing, after the start phase, I found that spark did not occure at every TDC of the piston, approximately 4 spark events in 10 piston TDC's accompained with a thin blue spark. Next I installed an OE flywheel and re-performed the above tests with exception of the scope test. The HX3 held the timing true to the curve no matter where i drew it, the HX3 followed that curve exactly. Did another Spark test, found spark occures at every TDC event and has a thick, bright yellow spark that when video was taken you could see the blue spark inside the yellow spark.

These tests were not perfomed under load, the engine runs fine on the stand, but symtoms become noticable while on the trailer under load or while water testing so we could have even more annomalies

Chris and Lisa at AirTime were very helpfull during all of this and went over my flywheels type and age early on, we tried the OE, 116 & 117 flashes too. Chris is the one who suggested trying an OE flywheel, kudos to him.

My MSD and Pro Tec cdi's worked fine with that TBM flywheel.
The HX3 works great with a lightened OE flywheel.

Just a heads up

That was an incredibly long "no."

Sounds like you tried it all, I was just wondering if anyone had ever put a timing light on it. There's such a draw on here for plug and play parts that I wasn't sure anyone had ever actually tried putting a light on it. Great write up!

 

[Buckwild12]

OK my original Epic ran fine with my tbm flywheel, I recently took advantage of the trade in for new promo you guys were running, im hoping to be recieving my new epic hx3 in the next day or two. You think it will work? or should I just plan to switch to total loss? I have a fresh motor ill be breaking in in a few weeks, I really dont want to have ignition issues!!!!!

 

[Pablo]

TL all the way if ur going with a big time engine. Don't half-step if want a kick-azz setup. Go full nuts!

IMO TL is the single biggest upgrade u can make and when u add it to a big engine, compression, pipe and a pump that gets it done its like magic. I hate charging batteries but its just the price to play when u want powa.

 

[Harbor]

The HX3 works great with a lightened OE flywheel so its not to big a deal if you decide to try it with your TBM and it doent work, just replace the flywheel and your good. From what you've described your TBM was working ok with your older Epic so thats a good sign, your TBM might work. Its definantly worth a try you already have the TBM and the HX3. Its really is not to much work to see if its working ok either, after your all built and ready for a water test just leave the ski strapped down to the trailer and back it into the water, let it warm up and see how the throttle responsive it is on the trailer, does it rev out and rev up normally. If its not working youll notice poor throttle response and the engine is not snappy when you accelerate it, bogs though out RPM range and does not rev up completlly, lacks normall power, its pretty obvious. If you PM me your email ill send you a video of what to look for while on trailer testing. Also the #zero flywheel i bought weight was 3.0 pounds, my TBM was 2.03 so its really not alot .97 pounds differance btw.

 

[Buckwild12]

Its going to be a 4mil stroker Dasa in the 915ish cc area. I have been talking t/l for a while, and its coming, but im getting married this year and its sucking me dry financially. going to have to wait til next year along with a Powerfactor pipe.

 

[Waveblaster785]

Brian, we can put a timing light on it if it's not acting right. I have a spare front cover here that I'm planning on cutting down. I want to get my Vilder set up properly so I'm planning on going through the motions anyway and it's not a big deal to do yours too.

I'm planning on running my "known good" setup to tune the engine, then I'll swap out my advent for the Vilder and start tweaking.

 

[ScottS]

Sorry but I do not have an old TBM, bought new in nov 2012. Also another member with a TBM from latest batch of flywheels had the same issue. I have videos and Chris at airtime was in the loop on the issue. He cannot account for irregularities in the flywheel magnets. I wish it could have worked the issue cost me a lot of time and money. Good to hear yours is working. You can check the web site you'll see it's not offered as compatible.

There were a lot of the brand new older style TBM that venders had in stock and are selling. They have RRP labels near the hub, I got stuck with one. Not saying that's your problem, but if it has RRP on it, it is.

 

[Harbor]

There were a lot of the brand new older style TBM that venders had in stock and are selling. They have RRP labels near the hub, I got stuck with one. Not saying that's your problem, but if it has RRP on it, it is.

I'am glad you posted for a number of reasons. I sent photos of my flywheel to TBM asking for the year of manufacture and info on magnets and it's magnetic signature and if there was a newer model with stronger magnets.
They determined from machining indicators that my flywheel was made in 2009 or 2010. And that the magnets are the same from 2007 to present. He also said he has designed the TBM flywheels magnets to be slightly weaker than stock without effecting the charging system, this was done to reduce the magnetic resistance of the flywheel spinning along with the reduced weight to make it rev quicker. It's all right on the cuffs. ---Well can't upload photos again site issues try again later... Edit: photos working now, those are of my flywheel at the top.

 

[Poizen]

My flywheel was made in 2013 it was the freshest of the batches

 

[ScottS]

View attachment 241385 View attachment 241386
I'am glad you posted for a number of reasons. I sent photos of my flywheel to TBM asking for the year of manufacture and info on magnets and it's magnetic signature and if there was a newer model with stronger magnets.
They determined from machining indicators that my flywheel was made in 2009 or 2010. And that the magnets are the same from 2007 to present. He also said he has designed the TBM flywheels magnets to be slightly weaker than stock without effecting the charging system, this was done to reduce the magnetic resistance of the flywheel spinning along with the reduced weight to make it rev quicker. It's all right on the cuffs. ---Well can't upload photos again site issues try again later... Edit: photos working now, those are of my flywheel at the top.

That has the markings like my TBM that works with the Epic. In 2011 I bought a new TBM from a vender that he later told that he bought a bunch of from a dealer that was closing. They were all TBMs made for Rick Roy Products and had RRP label, not TBM. I don't know if TBM was selling the same with their label then. The vender sold me another new style TBM at cost to use with my Epic and I use the RRP one with my other ski that has an MSD Enhancer, which works fine.

 

[Harbor]

Thanks I'll ask this week about those RRP's you mention, years made, magnetic signature of those, if it's possible mine was of the same batch, etc. I have some other questions for them as well.

TBM did say they designed the reduction in magnetic's to work with the OE Cdi and the MSD Cdi

Interesting stuff, I see where your going with it.

My TBM worked flawlessly with my MSD enhancer too, we'll see

 

[Harbor]

Alright TBM said the RRP flywheels were the same TBM's as all the rest but with an RRP label. These flywheels also have the same magnetic's as mine, and all these are the same magnetically thru current.

You got lucky in your situation, you were able to work with your vendor when the RRP labeled TBM did not work with your Epic HX3 and purchase another TBM at cost. Luckily this time that second flywheel "only difference is the label" had stronger magnetic's

I do not have access nor do I wish to buy more TBM's to try out until I find one that has a stronger magnetic variance.

I think Airtime made the right call on comparability, kudos to them

My #Zero OE lightened flywheel is working great with the Epic HX3 and only .97 pounds heavier

 

[Pablo]

Harbor,

Does ur zero FW have the ring gear drilled out as well?

 

[Harbor]

No it's not drilled. The tape I installed with a degree wheel @ true TDC .

Edit: I just realized Pablo you may have been referring to the #Zero flywheel I am using. No that ring gear and flywheel face are not drilled.

The way I express .97 pounds might be a little confusing.

My TBM weighed 2.03 pounds and my non-drilled but lightened #Zero OE flywheel weighed 3.0 pounds. That's .97 pounds heavier, .97 x 16 = 15.52 ounces

Drilling the OE flywheel face and ring gear can lighten it a little more

http://www.x-h2o.com/index.php?threads/61x-–-62t-64x-66e-65u-650-750-800-kawasaki-yamaha-lightened-flywheels.37809/