waxhead
wannabe backflipper
- Location
- gold coast
Alot of people are scared of running big compressin but its a great thing i you have an ignition that will fire it cleanly
Other DASA 89mm vs. 94mm......Opinions??
- Thread starter tipafew
- Start date
Are you referring to running higher compression on pump gas but with an ignition (programable) that can tune it down at higher throttle?
waxhead
wannabe backflipper
- Location
- gold coast
Yes by using a higher compression to help bring the engine up on the pipe and then pulling the timing out to make it safe
- Location
- Grand Rapids, MI
There has been lots of good feedback here!
Decisions decisions......hoping whatever I buy will last me a long time so I don't have to do this again soon. I know some people like changing their set up every year. I like to set it up, maintain it, and ride it!
Decisions decisions......hoping whatever I buy will last me a long time so I don't have to do this again soon. I know some people like changing their set up every year. I like to set it up, maintain it, and ride it!
I am really interested in hearing input on this. Thinking of building a Kawi DASA myself
masterblaster
X-H2
wax,I do that with a motor I have. I run 210 comp and use tl to bring down the timing fast,it runs very well on 93 and has zero det on the pistons even running in the river at speed for a bit. Its been my experience with it though,the crank wears out much faster and needs rebuilding about 1.5 seasons. Its a 5 mil long rod also.
I have another 6 mil on 180 comp and stockish ign that far outlasts it,its not that far behind it in performance for surf.
Curious to know what kinda run time you get outa a high compression motor,in terms of hours or tanks of fuel,since we all ride varying amounts in a season At that time.I was riding once to twice a week,9 to 10 months outa the year,at least a tank or sometimes 2 each ride,twin 48s setup running about 1.5 hours a tank.
verdict still out on tl in surf,its another $1500 at least done right in a dry box for surf. im still not sure its worth it,It does burn through water better,but if you swamp your motor i found it to be more of a pain to deal with restarting on the beach. We are going with the ease of stock ign and making ALL the power with cc and good porting. hopefully one day a charging analog to digital ign that fits in the oem elec box will come out that,isnt super sensitive and a pita. we will see about the new beta epic,im not holding my breath on that one.
For now,its entirely possible to make your power with cc and really good flow,and keep things simple and cheap..just a matter of fig out the best transfer and exh duration's to do that with large cc at lower compression #s and pump fuel.
Alot of the dasa setups use very high port timing,so they come to life with big comp and timing,race fuel...alot of these are used in flatwater or competition,but a surf motor really doesnt need to be built this way.
I have another 6 mil on 180 comp and stockish ign that far outlasts it,its not that far behind it in performance for surf.
Curious to know what kinda run time you get outa a high compression motor,in terms of hours or tanks of fuel,since we all ride varying amounts in a season At that time.I was riding once to twice a week,9 to 10 months outa the year,at least a tank or sometimes 2 each ride,twin 48s setup running about 1.5 hours a tank.
verdict still out on tl in surf,its another $1500 at least done right in a dry box for surf. im still not sure its worth it,It does burn through water better,but if you swamp your motor i found it to be more of a pain to deal with restarting on the beach. We are going with the ease of stock ign and making ALL the power with cc and good porting. hopefully one day a charging analog to digital ign that fits in the oem elec box will come out that,isnt super sensitive and a pita. we will see about the new beta epic,im not holding my breath on that one.
For now,its entirely possible to make your power with cc and really good flow,and keep things simple and cheap..just a matter of fig out the best transfer and exh duration's to do that with large cc at lower compression #s and pump fuel.
Alot of the dasa setups use very high port timing,so they come to life with big comp and timing,race fuel...alot of these are used in flatwater or competition,but a surf motor really doesnt need to be built this way.
Cannibal
Tasty Human
- Location
- Summit Lake, WA
Isn't this already available with the ATP Programmable Total Loss?
http://www.airtimeproducts.co.uk/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=27
Proformance1
Liquid Insanity
- Location
- New York Crew
Lots of great feed back, and I know this is going to sound crazy, but I agree with both sides. I have ridden quite a few set ups and owned quite a few as well. Strictly comparing DASA to DASA, which is what was asked at the start.
I feel square motors are best as well. But coming from building race, marine, and pull tractor 4 strokes that is the case. I have been proven wrong a few times with the 2 strokes. I didnt feel the 94mm 10 mm stroke was the way to make a 1100, but after riding a 89mm 16mm stroked 1100 and Brians new 1100 one, i really dont see that much difference. IMO, strictly referencing DASA, it is all compression, timing, and pump tuning.
You have to work with a good person who knows the sport, all the motors are reliable and I run a DASA 10mm 89mm with B pipe for surf. TORQUE is my key description of my motor. I think its great, I am a late throttle hitter as we normally dont get nice clean waves here on the great lakes, and like to get my arms ripped off from the bottom.
I feel square motors are best as well. But coming from building race, marine, and pull tractor 4 strokes that is the case. I have been proven wrong a few times with the 2 strokes. I didnt feel the 94mm 10 mm stroke was the way to make a 1100, but after riding a 89mm 16mm stroked 1100 and Brians new 1100 one, i really dont see that much difference. IMO, strictly referencing DASA, it is all compression, timing, and pump tuning.
You have to work with a good person who knows the sport, all the motors are reliable and I run a DASA 10mm 89mm with B pipe for surf. TORQUE is my key description of my motor. I think its great, I am a late throttle hitter as we normally dont get nice clean waves here on the great lakes, and like to get my arms ripped off from the bottom.
I've used my ATP in the surf for a short time without issues aside that pinching the wires from the e-box to the stator. Not a TL issue, could have happened with stock electronics as well.
I have my comp drawn back a little bit I'm still running 185 compression with 91/92 fuel. One of these days Im thinking about bumping up compression and retuning the map.
I have my comp drawn back a little bit I'm still running 185 compression with 91/92 fuel. One of these days Im thinking about bumping up compression and retuning the map.
- Location
- Grand Rapids, MI
I had considered your set up....10mill with 89mm bore. There isn't any cost difference to go to the 94mm but then I only get one bore out of it. Don't get me wrong that should still last me a long time.
masterblaster
X-H2
I was refering to a charging system. For our kinda surf riding its just better..When we go on multi day camp out rides in the middle of no where,switching batteries or chargin them in car or even when there is a hotel is a unnecessary pain. Ive never owned a flame,but ive know of others who have had issues with them and MANY others with the epic and worse yet advent. Not to get off topic,but trust me its of the great majority here who just stick with a stock cdi or msd enhancer to just keep it simple and have one less headache to worry about.
There is no reason you cant produce the power needed for huge surf torque motor with just cc and porting flow with the right port mapping. Save all your money for high dollar bolt ons for your purpose built flatwater hull. The ts865 and dasa 850 motors are the best example, Some design changes like bigger cc and lower port timing to achieve the desired goal with basic bolt ons for surf.
There is no reason you cant produce the power needed for huge surf torque motor with just cc and porting flow with the right port mapping. Save all your money for high dollar bolt ons for your purpose built flatwater hull. The ts865 and dasa 850 motors are the best example, Some design changes like bigger cc and lower port timing to achieve the desired goal with basic bolt ons for surf.
I agree.
I don't think a 10 mil is really feasible for the surf. Hard to say this but I don't want too much power. poop, half the guys I ride with run a pipe and prop in a stock unported engine and they are some of the best riders out there. Doesn't help they ride 300 days a year in Oceanside but still, theres a lot more out there then a need for power.
Me on the other hand. I need/want that extra kick.
- Location
- Grand Rapids, MI
My old motor was perfect for surf.......However do any of us "NEED" more power? Is it really worth spending all this money to flat water flip? I could do flat water rolls with my 701. Classic debate of where do you stop. When you are already spending $4,000 on a motor then why not spend $5,000. But then you need the other extras to go with it as well. There is no end to the sickness.
The sad part is... Your so right.
masterblaster
X-H2
being a primary surf rider,you have to know when enough is enough,there certainly is at a point. That said i watched alot of really talented guys I ride with move from limited 701s to big bores and small strokers and the things they were capable of were much more intense.
But when you push a motor to the point you can EASILY flatwater flip,you are going to have a handful of a ski to deal with in surf,your average rider anyway,im sure a pro would handle it fine. you just gotta find that happy medium,for me that is about 35% more power than the current 850s on basic bolt ons make...this is no where near what a 1000 or larger motor makes with tl,pfp though.
its just not a extra $1000 though,the extra bolt ons ,fs49s,tl,pfp are a whole motors worth more...4k
But when you push a motor to the point you can EASILY flatwater flip,you are going to have a handful of a ski to deal with in surf,your average rider anyway,im sure a pro would handle it fine. you just gotta find that happy medium,for me that is about 35% more power than the current 850s on basic bolt ons make...this is no where near what a 1000 or larger motor makes with tl,pfp though.
its just not a extra $1000 though,the extra bolt ons ,fs49s,tl,pfp are a whole motors worth more...4k
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masterblaster
X-H2
matt..yea we are talking about the other way around 75% surf 25% flats...Ive riddin a 1000 in surf in tona...it wasnt much fun for me really..It just wore me out 3x faster
waxhead
wannabe backflipper
- Location
- gold coast
Your right master blaster more compresion is harder on things I explain it to customers liek this. Your engine is a huge tan of power the more power you make the larger the tap is draining it. when that tank is empty its rebuild time. How big a tap do you want.
You can make good power with lower compression of course and some people I know are running a world famous stunt show with alot of low compression dasa motors.
Engine for engine you will have more zap from the motor with higher compression to a certain pint after that then its all loss
Interesting you say that about dasa being ported very high I have thought the very same thing as well. The gains in porting are getting your blow down right, there is no magical formula you need to get that right so your enging has enough time to drop the cylinder pressures and allow the transfers to flow. In a high rpm engine you have to raise the exhaust to get the degrees between the exhaust opening and the transfers opening far enough apart to allow the cylinder pressure to drop. If your dont have enough you can see it by looking for carefully at the stains on the roof of the transfers. There is a a few comerically produced engines out there that show this up if you have a look. its back flow down the transfers and it kills power
You can make good power with lower compression of course and some people I know are running a world famous stunt show with alot of low compression dasa motors.
Engine for engine you will have more zap from the motor with higher compression to a certain pint after that then its all loss
Interesting you say that about dasa being ported very high I have thought the very same thing as well. The gains in porting are getting your blow down right, there is no magical formula you need to get that right so your enging has enough time to drop the cylinder pressures and allow the transfers to flow. In a high rpm engine you have to raise the exhaust to get the degrees between the exhaust opening and the transfers opening far enough apart to allow the cylinder pressure to drop. If your dont have enough you can see it by looking for carefully at the stains on the roof of the transfers. There is a a few comerically produced engines out there that show this up if you have a look. its back flow down the transfers and it kills power
