I don't know. I have always disconnected the battery ground on every msd ignition ski I have ever owned and never had a failure. I ran one of the first advents for superjets on a limited on tour in 02'. Never failed 50+hrs. Always disconnect ground from the battery when finished riding
Msd enhancer vs protec modded cdi
- Thread starter Laxpro2
- Start date
I don't know. I have always disconnected the battery ground on every msd ignition ski I have ever owned and never had a failure. I ran one of the first advents for superjets on a limited on tour in 02'. Never failed 50+hrs. Always disconnect ground from the battery when finished riding
I know this is a little old but it's a super interesteing thread.
I made a quick graph of the results that were measured for those of us that need to see it visually.
Seems to me that 62t is clearly the "better" of the stock curves, although they all follow about the same general pattern.
OCD/Jetski Solutions/Garage did you ever get a chance to measure a 64x? That would be very interesting and kind of round out the data.
I made a quick graph of the results that were measured for those of us that need to see it visually.
Seems to me that 62t is clearly the "better" of the stock curves, although they all follow about the same general pattern.
OCD/Jetski Solutions/Garage did you ever get a chance to measure a 64x? That would be very interesting and kind of round out the data.
Quinc
Buy a Superjet
- Location
- California
That enhancer curve is way off from
What I've seen and been given. 18 start timing and 22 or 23 by 500 rpm ?? That would give kick back issues on start up id think.
Tech at MSD confirmed that this pick is its curve. Airtime gave me the same MSD enhancer curve for my epic.....
I feel more confident in the measured results from OCD, especially with him showing the picture of his test rig that looks pretty legit, than the graph from MSD that looks suspiciously like "marketing wank" to me, but the odd spike in timing on the msd graph does seem questionable.
I wonder if the fluctation in rpm while cranking an actual motor compared to the constant rpm of the test rig cause an inaccuracy at very low rpms (?)
Would be easy enough for somebody to put a timing light on a motor installed in a ski, crank it over and measure I guess.
I wonder if the fluctation in rpm while cranking an actual motor compared to the constant rpm of the test rig cause an inaccuracy at very low rpms (?)
Would be easy enough for somebody to put a timing light on a motor installed in a ski, crank it over and measure I guess.
Side note, if the graph from MSD is accurate, wouldn't that indicate that a stock kawasaki 650 timing curve is significantly "better" than stock Yamaha?
And also the concerns about kickback would be an issue with the 650 kawi enhancer?
And why does the 750 use way less advance?
And also the concerns about kickback would be an issue with the 650 kawi enhancer?
And why does the 750 use way less advance?
I've had some timing issues over the last 4 years on 3 different engines so I've been mapping it on the engine while it's cranking if it's a backfire/kick back concern and while it's running... I remember the enhancer cranking timing with spark plugs disconnected was 12 deg ish..... Once it's running the timing bounces around a lot, I paid attention to start timing, advance pattern and total timing. I had trouble trying to map it by myself on the work stand. Run the water, watch the tach, man the timing light and write down what I saw was a lot work....at all the different rpm points. might try again as Iam putting in an enhancer this months or so....
@Storbeck No that flywheel is stock, #zero lightened the face & colored it.
@Storbeck, So I figured out why your timing curves look odd, couple small over sights
@The OCD Garage, Kutos to you for your work on that timing map, turns out it dam close to MSD published curve.
A little story first, for me it confirms the MSD published timing curve pick and OCD's map match.
Over the past 4 years or so I've had to adjust and trying a lot of timing curves, I found as little as a 2 deg change is a lot and can be felt riding the ski, so nearly any change you'd feel...
Super Long story short: So I put a TBM flywheel on my 8 mil stroker which had a MSD enhancer on it. Still ran great, Next I added a Epic hx3 with TBM flash and Airtimes timing curve. Ran like dog poop, couldn't even jump my own set up wake. I said maybe it's the curve, they said its my stator or my HT coil or my jetting. Problem started when I installed the hx3 so iam not agreeing. They were great to work with, I ask for the enhancer curve to rule out there curve, I program it and its still runs like poop. Chris calls me and we talk and he says put a stock flywheel on it and report. I put OE flywheel and bam skis running great again just like it did with the enhancer.. My point here is they gave me the published MSD timing curve, after the flywheel issue was fixed the ski ran like it had the enhancer installed... Curves felt the same.....
@Storbeck During my time testing cranking timing I found the engine cranking speed with plugs in started at 0 and increased to about 175 rpm. OCD chart starts at 400 rpm with 18.5 degrees of timing. Timing below 400 rpm is not listed. You plotted the 400 rpm timing info into the 0 rpm (start timing spot) and skewed all the maps. Little oversight, I prolly would have done the same dam thing.
OCD's 18.5 at 400 rpm nearly matches my published enhancer curves 400 rpm point, which is about 17.5... I found start timing about 12 deg on my engine cranking at 175 rpm.
So I plotted OCD's chart 3 ways, first like you did and it looks the same as yours. Next I fixed the start timing portion and it looked a little better. Then I only drew the rpm data points Airtimes enhancer curve has, 0 to 600 to 1000 to 1500 End at 8k, let the program do the rest and whatda know its a dam near match, only off by +2.5 deg at 8k
OCD's map nearly concurs with MSD published map
Blue is MSD published, looks long because the graph is longer, not shrunk like msd's photo but is the same. Red is OCD's chart graphed for the 701 enhancer..
GREAT POST!!
Good catch. I'm going back and looking at what I did now, and it's even a little weirder. I made that graph in Excel and emailed it to myself (I was at my work computer when I made it) and posted it at home by opening it in Google Sheets. The Excel graph is correct but the Google Sheets graph for some reason shifted everything over.
Excel:
Google Sheets
Good catch. I'm going back and looking at what I did now, and it's even a little weirder. I made that graph in Excel and emailed it to myself (I was at my work computer when I made it) and posted it at home by opening it in Google Sheets. The Excel graph is correct but the Google Sheets graph for some reason shifted everything over.
Excel:
Google Sheets
Harbor you've get even more great information here because you have a direct comparison of the same motor with
1. MSD Enhancer
2. Total loss with same curve as an Enhancer
3. (making somewhat of an assumption here) Total loss with some other curve, probably more aggressive than the enhancer.
Any chance you'd be willing to comment on the differences you notices between all of those?
Now I really wish there was a 64x curve to compare to all of this.
1. MSD Enhancer
2. Total loss with same curve as an Enhancer
3. (making somewhat of an assumption here) Total loss with some other curve, probably more aggressive than the enhancer.
Any chance you'd be willing to comment on the differences you notices between all of those?
Now I really wish there was a 64x curve to compare to all of this.
MTRHEAD, thank you! No not running it anymore. couldn't get that 16 mil to start correctly and consistently with it.. start timing on the HX is fixed at 14 deg during starting even though the editor lets you adjust timing all the way down to 0 Rpm making you think your adjusting start timing. The curve is ignored until its running.
Storbeck. Thank you... Wow, that's a trip,
It got convalueted in the email, cool.
Um no real comment on your questions, the only back to back was enhancer to programmable charging HX3. Then enhancer curve in the HX3. Even with the comparability issue it hit even harder up top, the timing is really really noticable. MSD TL doesn't have an enhancers curve so really only way to test that would be with a Ts2 TL with an enhancer curve programmed then remove it and put a charging system on with and enhancer... or with a JsTl system.
Storbeck. Thank you... Wow, that's a trip,
It got convalueted in the email, cool.
Um no real comment on your questions, the only back to back was enhancer to programmable charging HX3. Then enhancer curve in the HX3. Even with the comparability issue it hit even harder up top, the timing is really really noticable. MSD TL doesn't have an enhancers curve so really only way to test that would be with a Ts2 TL with an enhancer curve programmed then remove it and put a charging system on with and enhancer... or with a JsTl system.
What was the starting issue? also, you know you could rotate your stator for less degrees at starting and then just run a hotter curve (mathematically). The old Vilder had a sensor offset field to adjust for differences...
Did the HX3 work ok otherwise?
Thank you
@TheOCDGarage you seem fairly knowledgeable about these CDI's, wondered if you knew or could speculate:
The stock curve seem to be basically the opposite of what's desired, they have low advance at low rpm then climb up at higher rpm, vs what seems to be generally accepted as best performance of high advance at low rpm and taper off.
Is that due to the way they physically work? Like they naturally have that curve and changing it would require something more complex/expensive?
Or is there some reason why Yamaha is intentionally doing that. Saving the motor from people tooling around at low throttle or super bad gas or some such.
I think I saw somewhere that OCD, or possibly somebody else, posted that the voltage from the "charge coil" to the cdi follows a pattern of low voltage at low rpm's (most likley due to the low rpm generating less voltage on the coil) that climbs to a peak then starts to fall off (likely due to less time to charge the capacitor for each firing event), so the voltage would follow a pattern roughly the opposite of the advance. Maybe there is some relationship there????
I don't think there is any actual programing in the stock cdi's, the curve is based on some physical property of passive components, the time it takes to charge a capacitor to some voltage or a 555 timer (which is basically that) or some such I think (?)
The stock curve seem to be basically the opposite of what's desired, they have low advance at low rpm then climb up at higher rpm, vs what seems to be generally accepted as best performance of high advance at low rpm and taper off.
Is that due to the way they physically work? Like they naturally have that curve and changing it would require something more complex/expensive?
Or is there some reason why Yamaha is intentionally doing that. Saving the motor from people tooling around at low throttle or super bad gas or some such.
I think I saw somewhere that OCD, or possibly somebody else, posted that the voltage from the "charge coil" to the cdi follows a pattern of low voltage at low rpm's (most likley due to the low rpm generating less voltage on the coil) that climbs to a peak then starts to fall off (likely due to less time to charge the capacitor for each firing event), so the voltage would follow a pattern roughly the opposite of the advance. Maybe there is some relationship there????
I don't think there is any actual programing in the stock cdi's, the curve is based on some physical property of passive components, the time it takes to charge a capacitor to some voltage or a 555 timer (which is basically that) or some such I think (?)
MTRHEAD: No for me the stator rotation didn't work on the HX3 in the start timing phase. I'd adjust it, crank it while checking the timing and it always stayed the same during cranking. Had Chris at Airtime in on it too.
We were both baffeled...
Chris said Start timing he has fixed at 14 BTDC and it's not adjustable, it ignores the curve till it's running....he suggested the stator move too.., he was baffeled
This starting issue began with installing my previously run charging Hx3 system with OE flywheel on a dasa 16 mil 1200 @225 psi. HX system previously worked great on my 8 mil Lamey stroker @200. Only thing is when first cranking it I'd intermitantly get a (cranks hard condition, rut rut) id let off the start button momentarily and restart, crank normally now. Figured it was imconsustant start retard system ... wasn't an issue..... ran great.... ski only had a 120 cca ext9 battery so that prolly didn't help, but it cranked normally on second crank....
The 1200 had the cranks hard condition 10 times worse, anti gravity 480cca battery too.. it would start often for testing but it'd have trouble spinning the engine over other times, sometimes it only get 1 revolution or 2 when trying to start it.
Issue started with this 1200...
If the anti gravity Battery is cold it won't crank it either, so Battery needs to be warm... not sure when I realized this......but with the MSD enhancer all issues where gone... instantly! Without battery heating.
First time the ski was in the water on trailer with the HX I found the rear pisser spitting and on a second restart, wiped out the bendix and starter.. fixed that and I corrected the deck and replaced the dome orings..
With Chrise help I tried all kinds of stator adjustments, rechecking 0 index on flywheel and case, recheck stator timing with flat curves, adjust curve to compensate.. all kinds of stuff....
On the water test I'd make it 1000 feet in no wake zone the engine would hiccup and die and hard crank rut rut and not rotate fast enough to re-start...
With out spark it cranked fine so this clue told me it was the start timing and not something else....
The billet cases have no TDC so you have to find true TDC yourself, install a flat 0 curve and verify it, flat 15 and verify that....
In the end it kicked back so hard one time it nearly wiped my crank key way out.... I called it done here...
Ordered an enhancer, bolted it in, bam all my issues are gone.... bought TL MSD and installed later that summer or winter I forget ..
Chris said no ones run one on a 16 mil.. so it might not be combatable...
I think the issues in the start timing feature of the HX3......it ran fine on my other engine, occasionally hard crank but completely startable on the 8 mil. I even sent the HX to another member who was kind enough to put it in his ski and test it, worked fine... he ended up buying it... the stator I was using, I volunteered to help another member diag his cranks no start backfire, I installed my indexed flywheel and cover, checked his cranking timing and it was an estimated 60 ATDC.. I removed his eBay remain stator, put mine on and reassembled, hit the start button and the dam engine nearly jumped off the bench... they didn't have it mounted to anything..,they bought that stator from me....
So that HX3 worked fine, just not in a 16 mil or with a tbm flywheel...
We were both baffeled...
Chris said Start timing he has fixed at 14 BTDC and it's not adjustable, it ignores the curve till it's running....he suggested the stator move too.., he was baffeled
This starting issue began with installing my previously run charging Hx3 system with OE flywheel on a dasa 16 mil 1200 @225 psi. HX system previously worked great on my 8 mil Lamey stroker @200. Only thing is when first cranking it I'd intermitantly get a (cranks hard condition, rut rut) id let off the start button momentarily and restart, crank normally now. Figured it was imconsustant start retard system ... wasn't an issue..... ran great.... ski only had a 120 cca ext9 battery so that prolly didn't help, but it cranked normally on second crank....
The 1200 had the cranks hard condition 10 times worse, anti gravity 480cca battery too.. it would start often for testing but it'd have trouble spinning the engine over other times, sometimes it only get 1 revolution or 2 when trying to start it.
Issue started with this 1200...
If the anti gravity Battery is cold it won't crank it either, so Battery needs to be warm... not sure when I realized this......but with the MSD enhancer all issues where gone... instantly! Without battery heating.
First time the ski was in the water on trailer with the HX I found the rear pisser spitting and on a second restart, wiped out the bendix and starter.. fixed that and I corrected the deck and replaced the dome orings..
With Chrise help I tried all kinds of stator adjustments, rechecking 0 index on flywheel and case, recheck stator timing with flat curves, adjust curve to compensate.. all kinds of stuff....
On the water test I'd make it 1000 feet in no wake zone the engine would hiccup and die and hard crank rut rut and not rotate fast enough to re-start...
With out spark it cranked fine so this clue told me it was the start timing and not something else....
The billet cases have no TDC so you have to find true TDC yourself, install a flat 0 curve and verify it, flat 15 and verify that....
In the end it kicked back so hard one time it nearly wiped my crank key way out.... I called it done here...
Ordered an enhancer, bolted it in, bam all my issues are gone.... bought TL MSD and installed later that summer or winter I forget ..
Chris said no ones run one on a 16 mil.. so it might not be combatable...
I think the issues in the start timing feature of the HX3......it ran fine on my other engine, occasionally hard crank but completely startable on the 8 mil. I even sent the HX to another member who was kind enough to put it in his ski and test it, worked fine... he ended up buying it... the stator I was using, I volunteered to help another member diag his cranks no start backfire, I installed my indexed flywheel and cover, checked his cranking timing and it was an estimated 60 ATDC.. I removed his eBay remain stator, put mine on and reassembled, hit the start button and the dam engine nearly jumped off the bench... they didn't have it mounted to anything..,they bought that stator from me....
So that HX3 worked fine, just not in a 16 mil or with a tbm flywheel...
Last edited:
- Location
- Disco bay, ca
My enhancer from @JetManiac rips so much harder then my old cdi. Maybe he does voodoo on them before shipping? Best $ ever spent honestly (that and my cdi took dump so win win)
I tried ordering on amazon Black Friday , the one I wanted could not be sold to me since I live in California...emissions it said ...
So JM sent one and she rippp.
Maybe not all msd enhancers are created equal
I tried ordering on amazon Black Friday , the one I wanted could not be sold to me since I live in California...emissions it said ...
So JM sent one and she rippp.
Maybe not all msd enhancers are created equal
- Location
- Disco bay, ca
I wouldn't want the California edition anyways, probably gives you better fuel economy