Need your input on new ignition "brain" design

Jcary85

Jcary85

Site Supporter
Location
Glenmoore pa
Some of you may know I've been working on a new ignition for our sport. It's really a car ECU (based on Speeduino) which i've trimmed down to mainly just whats needed for ignition control. I have a couple open design questions and would love your feedback

Connectivity
I can either have wires hanging out of the potted ignition which you have to wire (similar to an MSD) or some type of waterproof connector like https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/TE-Connectivity/770669-1?qs=bVE8zYB/q2eQrARJAzxzTA==&mgh=1&gclid=Cj0KCQiAq5meBhCyARIsAJrtdr5H21SPNzCxXeOYXOWVBCy7DHe4N_PBgnXTRzDZbEgHEYz3YxCULnEaAr_oEALw_wcB
The connector approach is better IMHO but will drive the board cost up about $20 and make it slightly bigger. It will also mean people need to crimp their own terminals on the connector end. Open to other ideas here

Latching relay (start/stop)
Similar to MSD, we need to use a dual-coil latching relay (shifty module) to make the start/stop functionality work like factory. Zeel integrates this in the "brain" and MSD does not. I will be using TE dual coil relay and could either integrate this in the main ECU or make it a separate module. I'm inclined to make it separate since this will make it replaceable (they do fail) and will move high current carrying off the ignition module. As it stands, my ECU/ignition draws very little power since its driving "smart" coils with their own drivers

GPIO
How much general purpose in/out do people actually want? My current design has two "high current" (2amp-ish) 12v general purpose outputs. You could use this to control 2 stage water injection or anything you want based on literally any criteria. On the board, there's loads of IO, but no actual circuits to facilitate I/O. I could pretty easily add general purpose analog inputs for things like a pressure sensor, EGT sensor, etc, but this will add size and cost to the board. It also adds potential for people to do dumb stuff with this. Would love feedback here.

How people buy/get this thing
If i ever finish this project, I want to offer all the info in an "open source" way. I may not share the actual board design openly, but everything else will be "open source." It's all based on open source stuff anyway. I'd also consider selling boards and maybe kits. I was thinking people might like to buy this in the following configurations, but maybe this is too much:
  • bare board - cheapest but most advanced. Add any GPIO circuits you want, pot it yourself, add your own wiring
  • Potted board with wires or connector. No coils.
  • Potted board with wires or connector. Hall sensor, trigger wheel and epoxy/weld on front cover adapter included
  • Potted board with wires or connector. Hall sensor, trigger wheel, front cover adapter, cheap coils for a budget build
  • Potted board with wires or connector. Hall sensor, trigger wheel, front cover adapter, high end coils for a high end build
  • (maybe) Potted board with wires or connector. Hall sensor, trigger wheel, high end coils, custom billet front cover with hall sensor hole

Would love to hear people's thoughts on everything. Thanks!!

-Jordan
 
Jcary85

Jcary85

Site Supporter
Location
Glenmoore pa
also, for the record, this will be very cheap. I'm not looking to go into the jet ski business really... just looking to help the sport. The boards currently have an assembled cost around $25 at pretty low volume. I need to make a few changes that could drive this up a bit and the cost of wire, solder, a little bit of time to assemble, etc. isn't included but at least you have an idea where things stand cost wise.
 
WFO Speedracer

WFO Speedracer

A lifetime ban is like a lifetime warranty !
Location
Alabama
I will only give my opinion on the connector, I say just hang the wires out so people can use whatever connector type they prefer, I like Weatherpacks personally but different people like different stuff.
 
Jcary85

Jcary85

Site Supporter
Location
Glenmoore pa
WFO Speedracer said:
I will only give my opinion on the connector, I say just hang the wires out so people can use whatever connector type they prefer, I like Weatherpacks personally but different people like different stuff.
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Ok cool cool. Not sure if you secretly have a strong opinion about how bad this project is or if you just have an opinion on the connector haha
 
Jcary85

Jcary85

Site Supporter
Location
Glenmoore pa
Mitchyboy561 said:
As a bit of a noob with TL and Zeel ignitions... what is it your trying to do with yours?
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You cant get MSD anymore. It’s discontinued. Zeel is good but doesn’t have very good pickup resolution with factory 2 point trigger so I’m convinced it’s not as accurate as we want when crank speed fluctuates. I’m using a much higher resolution trigger wheel. I’m also using tunable smart coils which you can tune dwell time on. You can also tune and data log with this with an android phone over Bluetooth. You can also control outputs and log additional sensors if you want the data or control. Possibilities are endless.
 
S

Storbeck

Location
Minnesota
You have my attention with the data logging.

Data logging a couple of temperature channels and rpm would be huge in my opinion. What rpm are you actually running? What is your actual pipe temp? Very few actually know. Easy data logging and they can actually know. GPS speed would be great too but the smart phone can probably do that if the app is done right.

I remain a little bit skeptical of the inductive coils in a two stroke application, but it will be awesome if it works and I would be pumped.

I can see advantages both ways with the connector thing and I'd be okay with either, but I lean a bit towards the wires rather than the connector.
 
Jcary85

Jcary85

Site Supporter
Location
Glenmoore pa
Storbeck said:
You have my attention with the data logging.

Data logging a couple of temperature channels and rpm would be huge in my opinion. What rpm are you actually running? What is your actual pipe temp? Very few actually know. Easy data logging and they can actually know. GPS speed would be great too but the smart phone can probably do that if the app is done right.

I remain a little bit skeptical of the inductive coils in a two stroke application, but it will be awesome if it works and I would be pumped.

I can see advantages both ways with the connector thing and I'd be okay with either, but I lean a bit towards the wires rather than the connector.
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cool cool. Ya the coils are the question mark but there’s plenty of dwell time for even the slowest IGN1As and the original were actually designed for mercury twocstrole engines. Pretty high rpm ones in fact. Even the OEM coils are capable of over 100mj IIRC. I’m hoping to test ride this in the next month or two. I’ve decided to skip testing it on a small motor and go straight to the 1200. I’m too excited about the tunable water injection to not try it. Imagine coming to shore, changing water injection point with your phone and going right back out …. Oh and log and see if you hit more RPM on your first flip or whatever….
 
S

Storbeck

Location
Minnesota
I really think people underestimate the usefulness of data logging. Make it easy to log rpm, gps speed, and say two or three thermocouples and this would be the greatest thing ever in my opinion. Water injection thing sounds cool too but the data logging is what would really get me excited.
 
S

Storbeck

Location
Minnesota
It would be cool to have a nice plug, but I'm not so sure about the reality of it. If you have a plug and a pig tail, then the wires have to go multiple directions. Like a set of wires going to the stator, a set of wires going to the stop start switch, a set of wires going to the ignition coils, etc, then you end up with additional individual plugs for all of that stuff, and the main plug ends up kind of redundant. Adds cost and bulk.
 
800750

800750

Location
minnesota
Thanks you for sharing this with us! I agree with storebeck, The data logging would be a huge bonus imo. The multi pin connector would be cool but Im struggling to visualize how it would look so I automatically default back to loose wires but I think you might be on to something. If it doesn't create to much of a headache for you I like the a la carte options you have. But i would say start with 2 options, a higher end complete one and a lower end complete one.
 
wikstromm

wikstromm

Washed up hillbilly
Location
SE
Imo i would love a system or brain that you can replace the TL brain with, use the msd coils and pickups, but maybe have some more options like SD card logging?
Logging EGT will be a new world atleast for the 2strokes skis with wetpipes never heard of egt metering in a wet pipe setup.
What tuning program will you be using?
Bluetooth connection with the brain?
 
WFO Speedracer

WFO Speedracer

A lifetime ban is like a lifetime warranty !
Location
Alabama
Jcary85 said:
Ok cool cool. Not sure if you secretly have a strong opinion about how bad this project is or if you just have an opinion on the connector haha
Click to expand...
Basically I am a how do I fix it guy, I don't know what goes on inside the black box, just how to diagnose it when it fails so I speak on what I know and leave the rest to someone else.
 
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