Need your input on new ignition "brain" design

[Jcary85]

Imo i would love a system or brain that you can replace the TL brain with, use the msd coils and pickups, but maybe have some more options like SD card logging?
Logging EGT will be a new world atleast for the 2strokes skis with wetpipes never heard of egt metering in a wet pipe setup.
What tuning program will you be using?
Bluetooth connection with the brain?

Thanks! Ya I have no interest in a drop in replacement for the antiquated MSD system. Sure, it’s easy for people currently running MSD but it’s short sighted. I’d rather have a proper complete system that doesn’t use bits and pieces of a crappy ignition from the 70s

 

[Jcary85]

Oh and tunerstudio on a computer. There are a couple options on android.

 

[wikstromm]

The tunerstudio seems kind of out dated or need some refreshment to work 100% with ease for your avarage Joe in a shed.
Why i like the coils and pickups from the msd is that, they actually work wery well when they are mounted correctly.
Have not seen any good smart coils for H.O jetski/boat engines.
Todays 2t snowmobiles doesnt even use smart coils yet, and I can guess why.

You could if you want right now, buy an Maxx Ecu or VEMS ecu for around 800-1000bucks hook it up to yours msd coils and pickups and do your own ign table with alot of other functions.

 

[Jcary85]

Ya, tunerstudio isn't the most user friendly, but the options on android devices are really easy and reliable. There may be tunerstudio alternatives for a PC/Mac but i haven't researched yet. For the record, I didn't really make this for the average joe in a shed - that said, I think the average person would open tuner studio once, load an ignition map and never touch it again.

As far as coils - we'll see how testing goes. These were originally designed for a high RPM marine 2 stroke. Sleds probably don't use smart coils because there's no need to - it's cheaper to build a CDI and use "dumb" coils most likely. You also have to remember we are actually a pretty low RPM application. most comp flatwater skis are leaving the water around 7k RPMs.

At 8k RPMs, we have ~7.5 seconds per revolution which means we have about 7.5ms of time per cycle which means we can run a max of about 4.5-5ms dwell at that RPM. We can probably get to 6ms dwell at 7k RPMs. The spark duartion is about 2.9ms IIRC on these coils which is long - thats the bug question mark though its considerably quicker on the original OEM mercury coild (i need to find the spec sheet). I think the OEM coils are going to be the ticket in this application vs the aftermarket ones. With a dwell of 4.5ms we are over 100mj just FYI. Thats double what a zeel outputs - and its firing two plugs at once.

 

[wikstromm]

Yes I got it, but I tought you wanted to go with smart coils and not dumb ones due to the build up of the brain/ecu?

And the avarage Joe probably will just need to load a ign map once or twice in a perfect world, that in other hands is not always the case when it comes to am stand alone systems, but I get your point.

 

[johnmarchetta34]

This is really cool and I cannot wait to see what you come up with.

 

[G-Body]

I could go either way on the connectivity. I like the cleaner approach of a connector, but its a toss up for me. Being that most people wouldn`t have the specific crimper to put the terminals on that may be a drawback. I end up doing quite a bit of wiring between all of my toys and probably have at least 10 different styles of wiring crimpers, I`m still finding styles that I don`t have. At this point I usually have one thats close enough to get the job done, but another $20-50+ for a crimper may be a drawback for some. Maybe offer a pre-crimped harness with at least a few feet of wire.

I would make the relay separate, I like easy to repair parts.

I would say 2 outputs and 2 inputs would be sufficient. I like that the zeel and ignitech both have input options for a 2nd curve, open or closed options for kill switch. Nice to have other options too with the outputs for a powervalve, water injection, etc. I could see a lot of people using 2 outputs. Although I could see some people using 3-4 outputs, powervalves, water injection, solenoid for secondary water bypass to cool the motor if it starts getting over temperature. I`m in the process of putting an ingitech on my ski-free so that I can use the shift light output to control the starter solenoid that way it will auto start as soon as the lanyard is connected just like the obsolete factory brain did. Well I also want the ability to tune the curve.

I would say a ready to bolt on kit for the rich, a ready built controller with no accessories for the budget people, and a bare board for the enthusiasts who want custom options and are capable of assembly. More options are nice but will greatly complicate your inventory.

 

[Jcary85]

I could go either way on the connectivity. I like the cleaner approach of a connector, but its a toss up for me. Being that most people wouldn`t have the specific crimper to put the terminals on that may be a drawback. I end up doing quite a bit of wiring between all of my toys and probably have at least 10 different styles of wiring crimpers, I`m still finding styles that I don`t have. At this point I usually have one thats close enough to get the job done, but another $20-50+ for a crimper may be a drawback for some. Maybe offer a pre-crimped harness with at least a few feet of wire.

I would make the relay separate, I like easy to repair parts.

I would say 2 outputs and 2 inputs would be sufficient. I like that the zeel and ignitech both have input options for a 2nd curve, open or closed options for kill switch. Nice to have other options too with the outputs for a powervalve, water injection, etc. I could see a lot of people using 2 outputs. Although I could see some people using 3-4 outputs, powervalves, water injection, solenoid for secondary water bypass to cool the motor if it starts getting over temperature. I`m in the process of putting an ingitech on my ski-free so that I can use the shift light output to control the starter solenoid that way it will auto start as soon as the lanyard is connected just like the obsolete factory brain did. Well I also want the ability to tune the curve.

I would say a ready to bolt on kit for the rich, a ready built controller with no accessories for the budget people, and a bare board for the enthusiasts who want custom options and are capable of assembly. More options are nice but will greatly complicate your inventory.

Great feedback thank you! I actually forgot about the map switch input on zeel. That might be tricky but I think wireless tuning with a phone kinda sorta negates the need. Either way good food for thought

 

[Jcary85]

Kinda a rats nest lol

 

[G-Body]

I would say wireless tuning doesn`t fully get rid of the need for the map switch. A large part of the reason I switched to the Zeel on my primary ski is that I wanted to tune the 2nd map to get rid of the hit from the pipe and make it a nice linear power curve for hood tricks and when I let inexperienced people ride it. I wanted to have full power normally but be able to flick the switch and be able to comfortably climb on the hood. As a bonus after I swapped it in I found out how much extra low end power I was leaving on the table with the stock curve I would have switched sooner if I knew.

 

[Quinc]

I cant find it, but there was a thread a few years ago where the guy was doing something similiar with raspberry pi and using it to data log and help with tuning. Anyway if anyone can remember his name or find the thread there might be some helpful info in there.

 

[Jcary85]

Got samples

I cant find it, but there was a thread a few years ago where the guy was doing something similiar with raspberry pi and using it to data log and help with tuning. Anyway if anyone can remember his name or find the thread there might be some helpful info in there.

haha I remember the thread. I’ll see if I can dig it up

 

[smokeysevin]

I was screwing around with a microsquirt, Pi 3, and pi display hooked to a serial board for my truck but never felt great about doing it with the ski since NONE of it would be water resistant enough.

On my 15f I ran a megasquirt so I could do internal logging on the SD card.

Ampseal is imo the gold standard for a reasonably accessible plug (which is why they are used on the uS and MSpro and why I used them on my 15f ecu box), do a board mounted plug and have the ecu hook in. I HATE having dangling wires with m-f plugs on it even though that is what I ended up doing on my JS.

For coils, you can use an external driver on a heat sink much like how the quadspark module works or you can use a smart coil. If you do either method, you can leave the main board setup for low-current triggering and let the user figure out how they want to run it.

Sean

 

[Jcary85]

I was screwing around with a microsquirt, Pi 3, and pi display hooked to a serial board for my truck but never felt great about doing it with the ski since NONE of it would be water resistant enough.

On my 15f I ran a megasquirt so I could do internal logging on the SD card.

Ampseal is imo the gold standard for a reasonably accessible plug (which is why they are used on the uS and MSpro and why I used them on my 15f ecu box), do a board mounted plug and have the ecu hook in. I HATE having dangling wires with m-f plugs on it even though that is what I ended up doing on my JS.

For coils, you can use an external driver on a heat sink much like how the quadspark module works or you can use a smart coil. If you do either method, you can leave the main board setup for low-current triggering and let the user figure out how they want to run it.

Sean

Thanks Sean! That’s exactly the plan. Working on an external CDI driver but I think the smart coils will work well for almost all applications. I just potted the first prototype the other night. The second revision has the latching relay and 23 pin plug built in. I know most people voted against this but I’m going to run a few boards this way and see what I think.

 

[800750]

Thanks Sean! That’s exactly the plan. Working on an external CDI driver but I think the smart coils will work well for almost all applications. I just potted the first prototype the other night. The second revision has the latching relay and 23 pin plug built in. I know most people voted against this but I’m going to run a few boards this way and see what I think.

Like Henry Ford said, if you ask the customer what they want, they would ask for a faster horse. You might be on to something with the plug in

 

[Storbeck]

I'm wondering how the trigger will work. You are attaching a separate trigger wheel to the flywheel somehow? (this is how it allows any flywheel?)

Love this project, basically the only thing I care about is that it works as an ignition and has provisions for data logging and I'll be fully on board regardless of the configuration of plugs and such.

The hardware needed to datalog thermocouples (as opposed to a generic 0-5v) is non trivial so I'm selfishly hoping you are taking care of that, it would be a huge value add in my opinion, but the rest of the world might see things differently.

 

[Jcary85]

I'm wondering how the trigger will work. You are attaching a separate trigger wheel to the flywheel somehow? (this is how it allows any flywheel?)

Love this project, basically the only thing I care about is that it works as an ignition and has provisions for data logging and I'll be fully on board regardless of the configuration of plugs and such.

The hardware needed to datalog thermocouples (as opposed to a generic 0-5v) is non trivial so I'm selfishly hoping you are taking care of that, it would be a huge value add in my opinion, but the rest of the world might see things differently.

I added circuits for 2 general purpose analog 0-5v inputs. Tested it with a generic pressure sensor. Works great and has diode protection for incorrect hookup. Attached pics of the trigger setup. It bolts on in front of the flywheel so u can use basically any flywheel and it’s easily serviceable

 

[Jcary85]

For the record, I need to redo the cutouts in the flywheel so it clears the rivets on a 62t style flywheel

 

[Wetbuffalo]

What is the plan to make sure that the trigger wheel is properly indexed to the crank?

 

[Jcary85]

What is the plan to make sure that the trigger wheel is properly indexed to the crank?

I’m going to include a pin that you put in the sensor hole and seats into the missing tooth. Set motor at TDC, put pin in place. Mark and drill a small hole in snout of crank and tap in a roll pin. I’d call that optional but keeps you from having to reset every time u remove flywheel. This will get u in the ballpark. Verify with timing light and adjust static angle as needed. It’s nowhere near as plug and play as zeel, but it’s tough to solve. I’ve got some ideas to simplify the setup in the future.