Plastic Hull??

Jetskiobsession

Jetskiobsession

Location
New York
I have been doing some research on creating a plastic hull. Everyone in the community i talk to says its not possible. When i talk to engineers and composite specialists they say it is possible.. So what i am looking for is if anyone here who may have some more detail on this. I know the Spark has been made from plastic and i believe with a little more density and the correct contour you could make a B/A stand-up that is relatively light. Also, if you believe it is possible what form of molding do you think would be most effective and efficient? I have looked into commercial 3d printing and i have gotten quotes between $200,000 to $300,000 for 1 hull. All other method like rotational molding and injection molding are hard to quote because i don't have a good idea of what a plug would cost. I hope that there is a more cost effective way of doing this.. Any information and any thoughts are appreciated.
 
S

Storbeck

Location
Minnesota
You have talked to "engineers and composite specialists" who say it's possible, but you're asking how on an internet forum? Why aren't you asking them?

How did you conclude "...i believe with a little more density and the correct contour you could make a B/A stand-up that is relatively light..." if you have no idea how?
 
Jetskiobsession

Jetskiobsession

Location
New York
TheBuzzard said:
where have you been? you're a few years too late. free form factory already did this from the ground up and it pretty much ran its course and is dead and gone. very few hulls were ever sold. the plastic technology/ company has also been sold. its over with. good luck trying to reinvent the wheel.
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Well the hull was "recycled material" but i dont know exactly what that is. And free form was sold to another company who is supposedly coming out with a new version 2019. i think this would be very far from reinventing the wheel. Not to mention the free form hull was reinforced with a sub-frame if i remember correctly. And to say its done with is very far off IMO because BRP has the top selling sit down on the market and it is fully plastic.
 
Jetskiobsession

Jetskiobsession

Location
New York
Storbeck said:
You have talked to "engineers and composite specialists" who say it's possible, but you're asking how on an internet forum? Why aren't you asking them?

How did you conclude "...i believe with a little more density and the correct contour you could make a B/A stand-up that is relatively light..." if you have no idea how?
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Because not all engineers have an understanding of the ride-ability of a hull. You could have a great design but the hull could ride like garbage. My goal in this is to see if there is someone who has knowledge of the ride-ability of a hull being formed in plastic in a reliable way. And the reason i say ".i believe with a little more density and the correct contour you could make a B/A stand-up that is relatively light " ifs because when i have talked to engineers they say that the contour and the shaping off the hull plays an integral part in the strength of the hull IE. the Spark hull. The reason i say it would need to be more dense is because i believe that a stand up ridden in surf would take more of a beating at least in the nose compared to the spark.
 
hink320

hink320

Location
sask, canada
Jetskiobsession said:
Because not all engineers have an understanding of the ride-ability of a hull. You could have a great design but the hull could ride like garbage. My goal in this is to see if there is someone who has knowledge of the ride-ability of a hull being formed in plastic in a reliable way. And the reason i say ".i believe with a little more density and the correct contour you could make a B/A stand-up that is relatively light " ifs because when i have talked to engineers they say that the contour and the shaping off the hull plays an integral part in the strength of the hull IE. the Spark hull. The reason i say it would need to be more dense is because i believe that a stand up ridden in surf would take more of a beating at least in the nose compared to the spark.
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Freeform started with just a plastic hull, saying it was indestructible. Next thing you know they have a 2.0 that has the metal frame for support...
 
Jetskiobsession

Jetskiobsession

Location
New York
hink320 said:
Freeform started with just a plastic hull, saying it was indestructible. Next thing you know they have a 2.0 that has the metal frame for support...
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Ah ok, thanks for the clarification! Well my goal here is to find out if the plastics have gotten stronger as well. Plastic has become more and more common in the military the past few yrs due to inc strength so hopefully I could implement that is possible into a hull,
be_lain said:
Higher density = more weight... just be aware of that
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Yes that is a good point, I want to start and see how much the prototype weighed, if to much then I could look to resort to plan B which is joining the plastic with a another composite material such as carbon fiber. This is a possible scenario but I’m not sure how cost effective it would be
 
BRANDO6X

BRANDO6X

Location
MI
I am not exactly sure of your goal here, are you thinking about making like one or two for personal use? or go big with a production run? Or just understand the possibilities?

If the question is can it be done... it is a yes as you know, however, is it worth it... depends...likely no in many regards. But it depends what you are after.

As for the method and material if you were to do it... I would say injection molding for sure, and I would imagine a glass or carbon filled resin would be your best bet. One of the Torlon varieties (7130, 530 or 4203L) may be a decent choice if you want to shoot for high end, pricey and high strength, high stiffness stuff...

Additionally it could be noted that all current hulls are plastic... FRP - Fiber reinforced plastic. Yes the method for manufacturing a traditional hull is not how people commonly think about a plastic part... but it is plastic... just with extra stuff in it. The spark is also reinforced plastic, it has glass fiber in there too... just a different manufacturing method.
 
Jetskiobsession

Jetskiobsession

Location
New York
BRANDO6X said:
I am not exactly sure of your goal here, are you thinking about making like one or two for personal use? or go big with a production run? Or just understand the possibilities?

If the question is can it be done... it is a yes as you know, however, is it worth it... depends...likely no in many regards. But it depends what you are after.

As for the method and material if you were to do it... I would say injection molding for sure, and I would imagine a glass or carbon filled resin would be your best bet. One of the Torlon varieties (7130, 530 or 4203L) may be a decent choice if you want to shoot for high end, pricey and high strength, high stiffness stuff...

Additionally it could be noted that all current hulls are plastic... FRP - Fiber reinforced plastic. Yes the method for manufacturing a traditional hull is not how people commonly think about a plastic part... but it is plastic... just with extra stuff in it. The spark is also reinforced plastic, it has glass fiber in there too... just a different manufacturing method.
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Thanks for the great feedback! I am doing this research to decide if it is a viable business endeavor. If viable for large production (Cost effective and durable) i would absolutely want to bring this to the market as a consumer product rather than a 1 off personal product.
 
Jetskiobsession

Jetskiobsession

Location
New York
Vortex said:
Plastic, urethane etc are a repair nightmare too. Just a forewarning. Have you welded plastic before? It's not fun or healthy lol
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I have not but from my understanding (very limited) there is a new process in the making that uses some sort of sound wave or something to re adhere the plastic with a durability in comparison with a good weld on a piece of metal. This is what i was told from and engineer friend but i am not sure about the actual logistics of this device.
 
J

Joeggernaut

Location
North Carolina
Just make electric skis. That is the true future. Pretty soon they will start outlawing 4 strokes due to emissions also. Plus instant torque from electric motor, just that pesky battery run time issue. Or maybe electric motor drop in for existing skis.
 
JRock637

JRock637

Location
Annapolis, MD
After what FF went through and you sound familiar with all that, I’d say your going to end up loosing so much time and money on nothing. They had a very smart team but it just wasn’t gonna work out.

The plastic is super flexible if not reinforced it will flex on impact which can easily lead to broken bones. So your going right back into dealing with alllll the exact same stuff FF already did, driving down the same path 2 years later. Then the sport is so limited I would never invest a large chunk into it because if every person in the sport bought it you might barely break even lol.
 
Jetskiobsession

Jetskiobsession

Location
New York
JRock637 said:
After what FF went through and you sound familiar with all that, I’d say your going to end up loosing so much time and money on nothing. They had a very smart team but it just wasn’t gonna work out.

The plastic is super flexible if not reinforced it will flex on impact which can easily lead to broken bones. So your going right back into dealing with alllll the exact same stuff FF already did, driving down the same path 2 years later. Then the sport is so limited I would never invest a large chunk into it because if every person in the sport bought it you might barely break even lol.
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Absolutely i agree! But FF tried to make the hull as rigid as possible from my understanding but i think the key to success is allowing some flex. you see this on the spark with how the top/bottom deck are joined. Although you are absolutely right about the money part.
 
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