Other Sunk Ski in Lake Erie...how do we find it...

[Matt_E]

just currious probably really stupid and i dont doubt anyone who said the avalanche beacon wont work for finding sunk skis. but isnt snow made out of water so whats the difference between 30 feet of snow or 10 feet of water....is the air in the snow that much of a difference....and i fish alot here in florida and your best bet is to hook up with a nice fishing boat. check out the pics matt in houston posted in 161 IT WILL WORK hope you can find it

There is a huge difference between 30 ft of snow and 30 ft of water.
Snow is mostly air with some frozen water in it. A commonly quoted number is that 10 inches of snow equal one inch of water.

Water is has a dielectric constant of 80. (Dielectric constant is related to attenuation of radio signals in this case)
Ice has a dielectric constant of 3.2
Air has a dielectric constant of 1.0

Snow is composed of air, ice, and water. The exact dielectric constant depends on how wet the snow is. But it's not hard to see just why snow is much easier to penetrate by RF than water.

 

[Idok]

The shots I posted are from the Lowrance models. They all look the same, the only difference is some models have a larger screen. Also it is possible to change many different settings including the color. The LSS is the brain of the side imaging and it is sold as a seperate unit that plugs into the head unit. The Humminbird products have the brain built in to the head unit, so it would probably be easier to go that route for a quick setup in this situation. Both brands imaging systems can find the ski no problem.

My other suggestion is this. I am a member of a fishing forum here and many folks on there are very friendly and always up for a challange and perhaps some bragging rights. Also many of these fishing forums are very local to discuss fishing on local lakes. I suggest that the person looking for the ski find a local forum that fishes that area and register on their site. Then post the story on there and see if anyone is willing to lend a hand. Maybe offer a reward for the first fisherman to find it. Either way they will get to practice on their electronics and at the same time get to show off how cool their toys are.

Again, good luck!

good idea.. 500 bucks to the first one to ping it

 

[QuickMick]

Thank you Bill Nye the science guy. We are much smarter now. So your saying next time somone looses a ski, it should be in snow?

There is a huge difference between 30 ft of snow and 30 ft of water.
Snow is mostly air with some frozen water in it. A commonly quoted number is that 10 inches of snow equal one inch of water.

Water is has a dielectric constant of 80. (Dielectric constant is related to attenuation of radio signals in this case)
Ice has a dielectric constant of 3.2
Air has a dielectric constant of 1.0

Snow is composed of air, ice, and water. The exact dielectric constant depends on how wet the snow is. But it's not hard to see just why snow is much easier to penetrate by RF than water.

 

[Matt_E]

That would help

 

[motozachl]

PLEASE REFER TO POST ! 37 and 160 .... call some LOCAL FISHING GUIDES . They have the equipment and know how to use it. Find one that is retired and they might do it for the challenge . Play to the Ego. With DJ's map you guys should be close...... 5 days your killing me !

8 days now....literally a dead person now....

Not sure what the deal is with our local fishing boating area but they all seem to be AWOL as well. Have yet to find an active forum, or let alone even see people on the lake besides us. Boating up here to people is about a 2 month season; you don't know how often I hear people not taking their boats out even once per season.

Anyways the conditons for our seach methods thus far like I've stated before is just atrocious yeilding the disappointment. Lake Erie is not like other lakes, bodies of water... Its filthy! = unclear

Going hard after the sonar route as this should prove a large gain over our proved insufficient searching methods. Also time is really not on our side as we all work 40+ hour jobs so just getting their is a contraint.

 

[Matt in Houston]

Type this in Google or Yahoo

"bass fishing lake erie forum"

A lot of sites came up, some had forums with recent post. Apparently its one of the best small mouth lakes around. Many of those sites had charter advertisments along the right side of the site. I bet you can get a half day charter for a few hundred bucks or less. Just tell the guide what you are "fishing for" and that he needs to have side imaging and know how to use it.

I have a feeling you will find it soon!

 

[rkm]

Avalanche snow is vastly different than regular snowpack. Acts like water when its moving, concrete whens it stops. Im not saying its close to the density of water but its a lot closer than average snowpack. Ive been accurate to a foot diameter 15 feet down. 6 guys, 8 hours digging.

A beacon could be a possibility. SOS used to make one specific for recovering vehicles.

 

[Waternut]

I will say that it does sound like you have solid friends willing to continue to help you look for it especially with as cold as that water probably is.

That said, if you're in need of money to help pay for that side scan sonar, I'll pitch in and I'm sure others wouldn't mind either.

I saw this one with a quick search that looks a lot cheaper. Maybe some of the fishing guru's can comment if this unit would be enough http://www.nothingbutfishing.com/Boat-Electronics/Fishfinders/596c-HD-DI-Down-Imaging-408110-1

 

[Matt_E]

Avalanche snow is vastly different than regular snowpack. Acts like water when its moving, concrete whens it stops. Im not saying its close to the density of water but its a lot closer than average snowpack. Ive been accurate to a foot diameter 15 feet down. 6 guys, 8 hours digging.

A beacon could be a possibility. SOS used to make one specific for recovering vehicles.

Point is that the electric properties are vastly different. Unless that beacon is on or within inches of the water surface, it will not work.

Long story short: radio transmission through water is physically impossible. (Unless you have an antenna halfway through the planet and powered by its own power plant)

Give up any and all ideas about radio beacons.

 

[Idok]

Point is that the electric properties are vastly different. Unless that beacon is on or within inches of the water surface, it will not work.

Long story short: radio transmission through water is physically impossible. (Unless you have an antenna halfway through the planet and powered by its own power plant)

Give up any and all ideas about radio beacons.

this sums it up

 

[rkm]

According to my handbook here, post avalanche snow is 80percent water density. How much of that is ice vs water?
Just curious. Id like to atleast test this.. Got a snowmobile 260 ft down in the lake right now. Now that is what you call gone forever

 

[Matt in Houston]

I will say that it does sound like you have solid friends willing to continue to help you look for it especially with as cold as that water probably is.

That said, if you're in need of money to help pay for that side scan sonar, I'll pitch in and I'm sure others wouldn't mind either.

I saw this one with a quick search that looks a lot cheaper. Maybe some of the fishing guru's can comment if this unit would be enough http://www.nothingbutfishing.com/Boat-Electronics/Fishfinders/596c-HD-DI-Down-Imaging-408110-1

That unit is okay but for the intended use of finding a ski it will take longer and there is still a good chance he could miss it. Reason being is it is only a downscan, so you would have to boat directly over the ski for it to show up on the screen. Also I don't think I read that is has GPS, so it will be harder to make sure of the proper grid overlap as you drive back and forth over the area. You could think each pass was right next to the last one but in actuality there are large gaps in the search. A unit with GPS would prevent this as it will draw a trail and you can see exactly where you have looked.

I would spend a little more and buy the Humminbird 798si, I think I saw one on Ebay for a couple hundred bucks extra and it has GPS and side/down scan. The forums may have one for sale used also.

 

[Matt_E]

According to my handbook here, post avalanche snow is 80percent water density. How much of that is ice vs water?
Just curious. Id like to atleast test this.. Got a snowmobile 260 ft down in the lake right now. Now that is what you call gone forever

It has much more to do with water content vs ice content than it does with density. Good luck

 

[Vumad]

According to my handbook here, post avalanche snow is 80percent water density. How much of that is ice vs water?
Just curious. Id like to atleast test this.. Got a snowmobile 260 ft down in the lake right now. Now that is what you call gone forever

Ride your jet ski in the snow, and your snow mobile in the water?

 

[rkm]

So if this beacon can read 100m through snow, why wouldnt it go 5m through water?

 

[QuickMick]

The way I see it, only ride in crystal clear water, have a friend with a bad azz boat with electronics on stand by. OR PUT FOAM IN YOUR SKI and RIDE and dont worry.

But lets keep arguing about snow vs water and the ability to ping a signal through it. Is it a snow mobile lost?

 

[Matt_E]

Because water is a much much better attenuator for RF than snow.
The only electromagnetic waves that will penetrate water are far too low in frequency to be useful. This is why sonar is used underwater instead of radar. (Sonar is acoustic)
This is why submarines must surface to communicate.
This is why water is used to shield against radioactive material up to and including active cores.
This is why microwaves heat water instead of just passing trough. Ever wonder why the outside of the burrito is blistering hot and the inside is an iceberg?
Microwaves use many hundreds of watts of power, some are in the kW range. And they still cannot heat your food evenly for precisely that reason.
Those are practical examples. If you'd like I can walk you through the theory of it, propagation of electromagnetic waves through different media and their attenuation properties. It's very boring, I assure you.

 

[rkm]

We will have to get a beer sometime and go through the theory.

 

[Matt_E]

I'll probably fall asleep

 

[motozachl]

OMG all this water snow beacons water pressure shoulda foamed stuff getting a bit excessive. I appreciate all those with suggestions, keeping me in their prayers & high hopes.