What happens IF factory pipe where to stop producing B-Pipes?

[seatsR4toilets]

It also, sounds to me like he is more interested in selling off tooling for multiple items at a time rather than one at a time.

Yeah, which makes that number even bigger.

I mean, realistically, if you bought three of Ocean Pro's GOOD tooling items that us guys here would buy, it would probably, in real numbers, cost close to $325,000 JUST TO PURCASE THE TOOLING from him.

....and you'd have to sell a hell of a lot of split nozzles and ride plates just to cover the nut of the initial investment.

 

[seatsR4toilets]

.....and, lets say the tooling for the Superjet B Pipe and limited chamber could be bought for $100,000.
Now, let's just assume that a B Pipe has $300 in profit to an end user purchase.
Do the math.
That's a LOT of B Pipes just to break even BEFORE you start making money.

 

[yamanube]

.....and, lets say the tooling for the Superjet B Pipe and limited chamber could be bought for $100,000.
Now, let's just assume that a B Pipe has $300 in profit to an end user purchase.
Do the math.
That's a LOT of B Pipes just to break even BEFORE you start making money.

I agree, I think changing enough things to work around the patent would be more likely. Change the chamber dimensions a bit, change up the header and water screw design a bit, etc.

 

[BruceSki]

Many lake riders will. There are a few on here that would like an even larger tank than the stock tank just because they have to go so far to get to the good riding spot.

I will buy a larger tank if someone makes one. We have a long ride to get to the surf here. At least one guy runs out of gas almost every ride or is sputtering by the time we hit the ramp and we each bring 2 extra gallons in the tray on top of a full tank. That statement about people only riding 3 gallons of gas is a bit of a blanket statement.

 

[wsuwrhr]

The problem I see, is your thread INSINUATES FP won't be making pipes anymore. Maybe I am wrong, but when I read it, that is what I thought you were saying.

I don't know what you mean about demand being greater than supply, because when we order pipes, they don't take very long to get here. I haven't heard of any backordered pipes either.

Like I said, I am guessing FP will keep making pipes as long as people keep buying, the demand may be "greater than supply" because their runs aren't as big as it used to be because the demand isn't as big as it used to be.

Simnple economics really.

For instance, (Good) Business will only outlay capital that they will recover in the term they need to.

Meaning, if they have 10K they can spend (and live without) for 6 months of product, then that is all they will do. Whether it produces 1 pipe, 10 pipes, or a 100 pipes, doesn't matter, that will be it, when those are close to gone, the process starts over.

In this market few people want to (or have money to) be sitting on thousands of dollars of inventory.

My worthless 2 pennies

Brian

I see what you are saying, would have been easier just to type that the first time. What you where saying and what you may have meant where totally different things, what you said was..

You are the man with the answers, I just had the question. So is it likely that FP will chug along with its relatively small production runs till they stop getting calls for new pipes? I have no idea what goes on in the jetski world outside of the X but it seems to me there is a higher demand for B pipes than there is a supply.

 

[wsuwrhr]

Probably be less than that, but...

Exactly.


Brian

.....and, lets say the tooling for the Superjet B Pipe and limited chamber could be bought for $100,000.
Now, let's just assume that a B Pipe has $300 in profit to an end user purchase.
Do the math.
That's a LOT of B Pipes just to break even BEFORE you start making money.

 

[wsuwrhr]

Saw that as well with no bidders,

I don't know......Ocean Pro has a few things that I really think could be money makers, and that dude has been trying to sell his tooling for YEARS AND YEARS AND YEARS.
With no buyers.


Then again, he wants a ton of money for his tooling. He and I even had a discussion about the purchasing the tooling for the oval split nozzle, and if I remember right, the number was very very big.

 

[seatsR4toilets]

Probably be less than that, but...

Exactly.


Brian

Really?
I think the B Pipe tooling would easily fetch $100K.
I mean, if you have the tooling AND the rights to it, you can make different chambers for different skis, thus opening up your retail market.
But, again, R&D to make a GOOD chamber that WORKS could be a whole lot hardrer and more expensive than it sounds tossing it around on a forum...

 

[Big Kahuna]

The problem I see, is your thread INSINUATES FP won't be making pipes anymore. Maybe I am wrong, but when I read it, that is what I thought you were saying.

I don't know what you mean about demand being greater than supply, because when we order pipes, they don't take very long to get here. I haven't heard of any backordered pipes either.

Like I said, I am guessing FP will keep making pipes as long as people keep buying, the demand may be "greater than supply" because their runs aren't as big as it used to be because the demand isn't as big as it used to be.

Simnple economics really.

For instance, (Good) Business will only outlay capital that they will recover in the term they need to.

Meaning, if they have 10K they can spend (and live without) for 6 months of product, then that is all they will do. Whether it produces 1 pipe, 10 pipes, or a 100 pipes, doesn't matter, that will be it, when those are close to gone, the process starts over.

In this market few people want to (or have money to) be sitting on thousands of dollars of inventory.

My worthless 2 pennies

Brian

There have been several times where they were backordered for months at a time.

 

[wsuwrhr]

There have been several times where they were backordered for months at a time.

As DASA/Lamey has as well.

Some due to our control, some not.

I don't recall having seen or heard of it in sometime though.



In general,

Many of you guys talk like there is a ton of money in making jet skis, pipes and parts for (two stroke) jet skis. Everyone is scared right now, uncertain of what is coming, or what is waiting around the corner.

Man I am telling you, don't bite the hand that feeds. Just be happy the government even allows two strokes to still exist.

I have seen other threads bitching about the (lack of) development for Kawi and Yami skis. Like it only costs them pennies to completely re-tool an existing bottom mold, develop a new engine design or something like that. Millions of dollars would need to be spent. This industry we are in is called a niche for a reason.

Yamaha quit producing Banshees in '05, end of 06 and the market for them dried up overnight because it is veiwed as "old". I think you can still BUY a new '06 Banshee at a dealer right now.



Brian

 

[Waternut]

What would be the difference between this hypothetical situation and how they currently do business? I'd really like to know when the last time someone actually got something from Factory Pipe... Seems like everyone is almost willing to pay almost full retail on a used pipe because FP never makes any right now.

In regards to one of the other comments... Is there anything stating that FP even has patents pending on their stuff? I don't see any comment like that anywhere and even if they had one when they first made the pipe, it's probably expired by now.

 

[wsuwrhr]

Got a box from FP in from the brown truck this morning.

What would be the difference between this hypothetical situation and how they currently do business? I'd really like to know when the last time someone actually got something from Factory Pipe... Seems like everyone is almost willing to pay almost full retail on a used pipe because FP never makes any right now.

In regards to one of the other comments... Is there anything stating that FP even has patents pending on their stuff? I don't see any comment like that anywhere and even if they had one when they first made the pipe, it's probably expired by now.

 

[seatsR4toilets]

As DASA/Lamey has as well.

Some due to our control, some not.

I don't recall having seen or heard of it in sometime though.



In general,

Many of you guys talk like there is a ton of money in making jet skis, pipes and parts for (two stroke) jet skis. Everyone is scared right now, uncertain of what is coming, or what is waiting around the corner.

Man I am telling you, don't bite the hand that feeds. Just be happy the government even allows two strokes to still exist.

I have seen other threads bitching about the (lack of) development for Kawi and Yami skis. Like it only costs them pennies to completely re-tool an existing bottom mold, develop a new engine design or something like that. Millions of dollars would need to be spent. This industry we are in is called a niche for a reason.

Yamaha quit producing Banshees in '05, end of 06 and the market for them dried up overnight because it is veiwed as "old". I think you can still BUY a new '06 Banshee at a dealer right now.



Brian

He's right; there isn't much money in it at ALL, and there will be even less if the current administration enacts some of the new policies that they are trying to bulldoze through.

 

[seatsR4toilets]

What would be the difference between this hypothetical situation and how they currently do business? I'd really like to know when the last time someone actually got something from Factory Pipe... Seems like everyone is almost willing to pay almost full retail on a used pipe because FP never makes any right now.
In regards to one of the other comments... Is there anything stating that FP even has patents pending on their stuff? I don't see any comment like that anywhere and even if they had one when they first made the pipe, it's probably expired by now.

It sure does. I think companies like FFP are soo caught up in making the bigger $$$ that is available in the four stroke couch market, that we, as a relatively small niche market, get easily pushed to the side due to just simple economics.

I think that for there to be real progress in our little 2 stroke world, there needs to be people who are willing to spend their own money to develop and produce them, and not hope or expect to get rich doing it. They will mostly have to want to do it for the love of doing it.

Sadly, I don't think there are many of those people out there, or on the horizon, and frankly, how can you blame them.

 

[seatsR4toilets]

...and, I'm sure there are guys on this site like me who remember the days when Riva was just a little, hole-in-the-wall company making a couple odds and ends aftermarket parts for the new 1990 Superjet. At the races, if you had a Superjet with something, ANYTHING from Riva on it, that was a big deal.
I'm pretty darn sure that Riva has the stand up (and Blaster, for that matter) specialty market to thank, at least in part, to the sucess they have today (I'm rolling my eyes), yet from what I've heard from the inside, they've all but left us 2 stroke guys like a red-headed step child.

When you walk into the Riva showroom in Pompano Beach, the VERY first thing you see is very telling: It's Tim Judges' early 1990's championship plaques.

You'd think every day they walk through those doors that'd they'd take pause...

 

[BombThreat]

Wasn't there a time a few years ago with FP did in fact stop makin B pipes for while... and drove the used prices way the hell up and well used pipe prices are still real high from that?

 

[wsuwrhr]

Get rich?

Are you serious?

I am sure I speak for everyone trying to make it in this economy, we are just happy to be able to pay bills.

You are of-base in your thinking, I'll help you out later when I have time

It sure does. I think companies like FFP are soo caught up in making the bigger $$$ that is available in the four stroke couch market, that we, as a relatively small niche market, get easily pushed to the side due to just simple economics.

I think that for there to be real progress in our little 2 stroke world, there needs to be people who are willing to spend their own money to develop and produce them, and not hope or expect to get rich doing it. They will mostly have to want to do it for the love of doing it.

Sadly, I don't think there are many of those people out there, or on the horizon, and frankly, how can you blame them.

 

[ATS_Aaron]

Get rich?

Are you serious?

I am sure I speak for everyone trying to make it in this economy, we are just happy to be able to pay bills.

I didn't think about it until I read this, but I actually ENJOY paying my bills. It might sound dumb, but I managed to pay off three credit cards in the last 10 days. I was so proud and excited. Still am. Haha.

Back on topic: Who mentioned the 4 stroke market for FPP? I don't think FPP makes ANYTHING for the 4 stroke market.

Maybe I am way off. I've never been to FPP. How big is their operation? Is it more of a mom and pop type place? Do they have another market that pays the bills (like DASA's 4 stroke ATV/Motorcycle stuff?)?

Aaron

 

[ATS_Aaron]

A 2005 Interview with Ross Liberty (owner? of FPP):

Who are you?:Ross Liberty

Where are you from? Currently, Ukiah CA

What's your age? 47

Marital Status? M

What do you do exactly, (be very specific, list titles, events, awards, or anything related to your skill). I make JetSki pipes!

What makes you different from others in the sport? They Don't make JetSki pipes.

What are your strongest and weakest points? I'm a workaholic but then again. . .I'm a workaholic!

How long have you been doing it for? I've been making 2 stroke exhaust systems since 7th grade but I just recently started making Jetski Pipes in 1978 for the first Kawasaki 400.

Why do you do what you do? I enjoy the technical challenges. Of course the shrinking market is not as fun and the IJSBA isn't helping Factory Pipe or any of the aftermarket folks these days.

Owned PWCs past and present: The OEMs generally supply test boats so I only own a SuperJet, a Polaris Matrix (neat boat!) and a Sea-Doo XPL.

Sponsorships/Endorsements: I'm generally on the other side of this equation.

Favorite Ride Location(s): Sawtooth mountain range, Idaho (Off road bikes)

Film/Movie: Book . . .Atlas Shrugged

Dream Car: NSX

(More Information Added March 26th 2005)
How did he wind up in Santa Rosa by the winery? I moved my family up here from SoCal when I was in High School.

Who's your wife? Loaded question. . .the girls in the ads, of course! (take your pick. . .it's your fantasy)

Where did you learn to make pipes and to tune PWC? Pretty much every pipe builder I know comes up with pipe specs by trial and error and when we get something that works we try it on every engine we test. For example, we came to the Type 9 pipe by cut and try (about 100 various pipes) and from there we put it on the Polaris Octane. It also worked well on the 800SXR as well but we went with a pipe spec that Darren Hedlund brought with him which was just as good.

Why don't you participate in any type of Forums? Never been invited. Probably because engineers (and wannabe engineers) are notoriously boring!

How well do you know the team mechanics? I know most of them pretty well and if they ride dirt bikes I know them VERY well!

Does you work with them hand in hand? My only interest has historically been exhaust system development that can be put into production so that limits my scope of involvement. So the ones I really spent time with were Darren, Lillean Beaumer (Nicholas Rius Racing), Bill Chapin (R and D) Dan Lamey and a few others.

Do you have input into the design or configuration of the pipes? Sometimes it's all them, sometimes it's a joint effort and Sometimes it is just us.

What manufacturers do you make pipes for? Currently the only folks in the game is Kawasaki but we work with the OEM snowmobile guys a lot and the Motocross teams like Pro Circuit, Bill's Pipes etc.

How many pipes a year are made? Jetski pipes are of course way down to just a few hundred a year.

Which pipe is the most common? Believe it or not the SuperJet "B" pipe is still our number one seller.

How much dyno time does an engine get in developing a set of pipes? Depends on the project, we literally spent a couple years testing nothing but Spec1 and Spec 2 Sea-Doo 785 pipes and on the other hand we only had to throw our Type 9 SuperJet pipe on an Octane to see it was good.

With two strokes going away, what is his next venue? OEM 4 stroke snowmobile currently and in the future. . .???

Any more developments in the fire? I've been considering handlepoles but still thinking about that one. Maybe Honda cars and the like.

 

[wsuwrhr]

Do you mean, Happy to be ABLE to pay bills?

If you are, then yes, I am always happy to be able to pay the bills every month.

I didn't think about it until I read this, but I actually ENJOY paying my bills. It might sound dumb, but I managed to pay off three credit cards in the last 10 days. I was so proud and excited. Still am. Haha.

Back on topic: Who mentioned the 4 stroke market for FPP? I don't think FPP makes ANYTHING for the 4 stroke market.

Maybe I am way off. I've never been to FPP. How big is their operation? Is it more of a mom and pop type place? Do they have another market that pays the bills (like DASA's 4 stroke ATV/Motorcycle stuff?)?

Aaron