Super Jet Who is running epic hx3 on 61x?

[jo5hi3]

swap stators or charge coils and run it,if you dont mind the trauma, at least this one isnt kicking back on you starting,loosing spark is best case scenario in a failing epic

Have one in my ski right now that was kicking back. Zero issues...... weird.

 

[OCD Solutions]

I don't think voltage plays as much a part as everyone believes. I had a set of battery cables made with copper welding wire and they were corroded from end to end. I had slow cranking and dead battery issues but the Epic never backfired or kicked back on me once. I finally swapped out the cables for my Surf Armor tinned marine wires only to find my battery was toast as well. So, if bad starters, batteries, cables and connections were the culprit, I should have experienced all the symptoms as well.

I also had a set of coil wires go bad prompting me to start rebuilding coils. My ski kept cutting out at higher RPMs or when I grabbed a handful of throttle. No Epic issues though.

That being said, we analyzed my system to see what might be different. Instead of analyzing systems that don't work, perhaps the better approach is to look at systems that do work, in spite of similar component flaws.

Scott and I were both running all JSS components and have for years without issue prior to the Epic. From start/stop switches to Stators, our components were all the same except for one little detail. I took JSS up on his offer to replace my charge coil with a rewound one with 10% more windings for increased charging ability and I keep coming back to this one difference. Is it possible that this one little component is responsible for the forgiveness I see in my system? I don't know if he still offers these or not but it might be worth getting one and swapping it into a troubled boat to see if it makes a difference.

Food for thought anyways.

 

[Quinc]

@QJS you around still? Any suggestions?

 

[badvinny]

I don't think voltage plays as much a part as everyone believes. I had a set of battery cables made with copper welding wire and they were corroded from end to end. I had slow cranking and dead battery issues but the Epic never backfired or kicked back on me once. I finally swapped out the cables for my Surf Armor tinned marine wires only to find my battery was toast as well. So, if bad starters, batteries, cables and connections were the culprit, I should have experienced all the symptoms as well.

I also had a set of coil wires go bad prompting me to start rebuilding coils. My ski kept cutting out at higher RPMs or when I grabbed a handful of throttle. No Epic issues though.

That being said, we analyzed my system to see what might be different. Instead of analyzing systems that don't work, perhaps the better approach is to look at systems that do work, in spite of similar component flaws.

Scott and I were both running all JSS components and have for years without issue prior to the Epic. From start/stop switches to Stators, our components were all the same except for one little detail. I took JSS up on his offer to replace my lighting coil with a rewound one with 10% more windings for increased charging ability and I keep coming back to this one difference. Is it possible that this one little component is responsible for the forgiveness I see in my system? I don't know if he still offers these or not but it might be worth getting one and swapping it into a troubled boat to see if it makes a difference.

Food for thought anyways.

I feel the same, I only run a 240cca battery on my 16mm Dasa 1100, I do think the Epic HX3 may be draining my battery when I leave the battery hooked up for weeks without riding. But for all the times it wouldn't turn over, if it did it would fire and run no problem.

 

[Quinc]

I took JSS up on his offer to replace my lighting coil with a rewound one with 10% more windings for increased charging ability and I keep coming back to this one difference.

My ebox was rebuilt by JSS and the charge coil has the red wire removed from it's normal spot and attached at the nut. Is that how yours is?

 

[OCD Solutions]

It's been over 5 years now so I wouldn't remember anything specific about it. I looked through my build pics to see if I took any pics before I installed it but couldn't find anything.

 

[masterblaster]

ScottS fried his HX3 but he blew out a capacitor on it. I can't recall if he had any issues prior to that event though. IIRC, the HX3 was performing great with all the same components that gave him fits with the Gen 1 EPIC. We were all pretty stoked but it didn't last long.

Scott is one of those riders like you described earlier that rides long and hard and builds up heat. He goes through components faster than anyone I know. I throw all my products at him for field testing for this reason. If it stands up to Scott, I know I have done my job right.

Yea ole Scott is a die hard rider,I use to really enjoy riding with him at hugo when I was living in fl in winter.Some long awesome rides,when the tank is almost empty...thats when its time to go back in..lol Heat soak is taking these igns out,it would be interesting to start another poll thread for members to post their positive and negatives on atp ignitions,how long they have had it,what kinda riding they do,approx tanks or hours on unit,being most important. My supras tune and turbo last 10x longer now that the car spends most its time as garage queen. There are alot of skis out there with the same kinda life,most riders wont admit it,but they are used infrequently and dont take a beating with short duration rides.

 

[OCD Solutions]

I have a couple HX3's and another Gen 1 EPIC on the way to throw on my test bench and punish so it should be interesting.

I'd be interested in a poll to see how many purchased and how many actually had issues. I know it seems like a lot did, but I still want to see the numbers. Is it 80% like some members would have us believe or is it more like 2%?

 

[Quinc]

It could also be that something else like the charge coil or stator is breaking down due to heat and causing the epic to have problems?

 

[masterblaster]

lol if it were 2% there would have to be one heck of alot sold. boyer,your the elec guy,start a poll thread and youll have alot more in the mail headed your way to test out,testing a few dozen could prove some things. I dont think a bench test is gonna show the start issue alot of them have though,or show timing issues higher in the curve? Tell it like it is and not how some want to hear it to keep a small group happy,so they can torture everyone else with endless gremlins

 

[OCD Solutions]

I haven't previously been able to recreate any of the starting issues using my setup but I recently made some configuration changes that allow me to run much slower RPM's. Instead of running 900-10,000 rpm for testing timing and the top end of rev limiters, I can now do a quick change and run it from 35-1500rpm.

What are the issues you mention about timing issues higher in the curve? I tested one where the timing would jump around at 3500 and 5500 rpm, does that sound similar? I can't remember the specific values but I do have video of it somewhere.

 

[masterblaster]

Its been years back and cant remember the symptoms that ski was suffering along the way, det on a low compression motor with a soft curve. IF you can recreate those momentary issues and diagnose them with your test rig,your the guy they need to go to. Put some heat on the ign and see what changes

 

[QJS]

It seems like some of you think that we manufacture ignitions with no testing. Here is a brief list of some of the test that have been and are carried out.

• Dyno testing-timing curve bases vs engine specs power output comparisons.
• Flywheel comparison, after market vs OEM including 61x and 62T. Outputs and effects on timing
• HT coil comparisons aftermarket and OEM and temperature monitoring.
• Stator coil heat and stress tests with OEM CDI and Epic
• Spark energy output comparison between OEM, Epic, HX3, Enhancer.
• Internal component temperature testing Freezing to -10 c (14f) then heating immediately to 70 c (aprox 158 f) then fired and place under maximum load.
• Timing calibrated to 0.3 of a degree using logic analyser.
• Circuit boards are commercially manufactured ie robototic and tested individually before and after potting.
• On load test rig at high and low rpm.

 

[OCD Solutions]

It seems like some of you think that we manufacture ignitions with no testing. Here is a brief list of some of the test that have been and are carried out.

That is simply not true.

I am not discussing testing or proving the component from an engineering standpoint, but rather testing and analyzing the system components that connect to it, to hopefully find a way to live with the component rather than toss it in the garbage. Understanding what their weaknesses are will help us take measures to protect our investments and extend their life.

In my line of work, one of my main jobs is to take a system that performs very well in a narrow window of conditions, and find a way to make it perform across a much broader spectrum of conditions.

 

[QJS]

That wasn't aimed at you Boyer, more of a general observation.

 

[Quinc]

It seems like some of you think that we manufacture ignitions with no testing. Here is a brief list of some of the test that have been and are carried out.

• Dyno testing-timing curve bases vs engine specs power output comparisons.
• Flywheel comparison, after market vs OEM including 61x and 62T. Outputs and effects on timing
• HT coil comparisons aftermarket and OEM and temperature monitoring.
• Stator coil heat and stress tests with OEM CDI and Epic
• Spark energy output comparison between OEM, Epic, HX3, Enhancer.
• Internal component temperature testing Freezing to -10 c (14f) then heating immediately to 70 c (aprox 158 f) then fired and place under maximum load.
• Timing calibrated to 0.3 of a degree using logic analyser.
• Circuit boards are commercially manufactured ie robototic and tested individually before and after potting.
• On load test rig at high and low rpm.

Did you test any of the ones that where sent back to you to find out which of the reasons above where causing it to fail. Or what could cause some of the symptoms that people are seeing? Like a faulty stator, battery, coil, etc.

 

[OCD Solutions]

Finally got around to testing two different HX3's today.

The one from Jaxrider tested great. He had issues since new and had sent it back to ATP for testing and they returned it saying it was good. He found a couple issues with his system that could have been the cause so it's headed back his way for water testing.

Vortex's unit however was not so positive. I never did get it to replicate the complaint that the ski would not fire up once heated up but I was able to capture the timing jumping all over the place. It only did it when under 5000 RPM though, get it above that and it smooths right out. When it jumps, it jumps to somewhere around 45-50 deg advance. I cooled it down and retested and found it still jumped around and it only gets slightly worse once hot. Combine that with a weak stator and you likely have your non starting culprit.

All testing today was performed back to back with all the same components. The only thing that changed was the actual CDI itself.

I don't have my Flir thermal imaging camera on hand at the moment but I shot temp readings of each housing throughout the testing with a standard digital gun. Jaxrider's never got over 132F but Vortex's topped out at 154F while running at 5500 for around 20 mins.

I'll upload a video of the timing jumping later.

 

[Vortex]

It seems like some of you think that we manufacture ignitions with no testing. Here is a brief list of some of the test that have been and are carried out.

• Dyno testing-timing curve bases vs engine specs power output comparisons.
• Flywheel comparison, after market vs OEM including 61x and 62T. Outputs and effects on timing
• HT coil comparisons aftermarket and OEM and temperature monitoring.
• Stator coil heat and stress tests with OEM CDI and Epic
• Spark energy output comparison between OEM, Epic, HX3, Enhancer.
• Internal component temperature testing Freezing to -10 c (14f) then heating immediately to 70 c (aprox 158 f) then fired and place under maximum load.
• Timing calibrated to 0.3 of a degree using logic analyser.
• Circuit boards are commercially manufactured ie robototic and tested individually before and after potting.
• On load test rig at high and low rpm.

What do you have to say about the results of ocd's tests on my cdi?

 

[Quinc]

Holy Advance batman! surprised the engine stayed together.

 

[Lumpy]

@OCD Solutions care to test another unit?