Ballistic Batteries Warranty

So this is now the Ballistic battery 'ripoff' thread? It looks to me that thier warranty has been as good as any other battery manufacturers,I have one in a motorcycle and one in my Rickter and the size and weight savings is awesome. I guess I should cross my fingers but so far these batteries (8cell and a 12) have been top notch for me!
I think Mattio79 should start his own battery thread if he wants to jack on another legit company's product, has asked for $300 sooo many times and not one fish has bit yet, read the forum a bit deeper and you may find that under the seat isnt going to work well either!
 
Holy crap! Mattio79 - no one is going to invest in an unproven device. You'll need to post some of your prior work, a CAD model of the battery pack, or at least a napkin sketch - it just sounds like you have a good amount of spare time and an internet connection at this point. If you want to get funded, do attempt to make a sketch and try kickstarter.com!
You are dabbling in so many fields - composite manufacturing to boot! Have you done any fiberglass or carbon fiber lay up in the past? at the bare minimum, we'd like to see the type of encasement you'd make as this is one of the main issues with current lifepo4 battery packs in this field.

I wasn't able to read through your swarm of posts but there are a few issues that I think you should expand upon:

->How do you plan to assemble the cells in the 4s-4p or 4s-3p configuration? The best method is to spot weld them, but you either need a professional spot welder or make your own capacitive discharge welder which will still cost you $$. Soldering them is possible but not recommended due to the method of prolonged heat transfer and reliability.

->I gathered that you wanted to wrap 26650 cells for this pack in carbon fiber? How are you electrically isolating them as carbon fiber will conduct? If any salt water finds a way in there (and it will!) what do you think will happen...

->Who is going to create the low voltage protection logic circuit with isolation switch - are you using an off the shelf model or fabricating it yourself? This will need to be a solid component as a false positive will put you dead in the water - we will need to know confidently that you have tested this in ALL conditions commonly ridden!

->I see you have mentioned the low voltage alarm - have you ever used one of these? I have and they are cheaply fabricated 90% of the time and I've gotten plenty of false positives as it measures each cells voltage and if any cell is bad is too low it throws a red light and buzzes - however after attaching my fluke to the balance cable the indicated cell was fine, and my balance charger agreed! I've attempted to use them in high powered light assemblies that run off lipo cells to warn the user but the false positives and nature of light use (either bike riding or pedestrian use) necessitated reliability over annoyance. They are also loud as :):):):) and equally annoying (they are meant to be though) but you can't exactly do anything about a low battery out on the water - you need a voltage indicator with some type of easily identifiable universal scale, may it be an RGB led that uses 3 PWM circuits to change color or a set of 3 or 4 led's that indicates power level like a battery bar meter on your phone. You mentioned something like this or someone else did in one of your posts.

->I think you and jMike may be onto something with the prismatic cells however the ~9 inch length is not desirable and getting custom cells made requires extremely large volumes to be ordered if you want them ESR matched - which is typically a good thing with battery packs. I interviewed with a company using them in deep see submersibles (10,000ft) and they were working on a robust backup battery for Apache chopper's navigation system. The deep sea unit was encased in a polyurethane block while the Apache unit had an aluminum case around said block for puncture resistance.
We may be utilizing them [prismatic cells] in our school's formula SAE electric race car this year as they have excellent power density if you can deal with the length and width.

Reply if you want, but if you think of something else to say within a day or less after posting the reply - please use the EDIT button - it's there for a reason!

After seeing the pictures from superjetjim - it seems that there is a great amount of improvement that can be done on these batteries, just need some solid ideas...
 
Holy crap! Mattio79 - no one is going to invest in an unproven device. You'll need to post some of your prior work, a CAD model of the battery pack, or at least a napkin sketch - it just sounds like you have a good amount of spare time and an internet connection at this point. If you want to get funded, do attempt to make a sketch and try kickstarter.com!
You are dabbling in so many fields - composite manufacturing to boot! Have you done any fiberglass or carbon fiber lay up in the past? at the bare minimum, we'd like to see the type of encasement you'd make as this is one of the main issues with current lifepo4 battery packs in this field.

I wasn't able to read through your swarm of posts but there are a few issues that I think you should expand upon:

->How do you plan to assemble the cells in the 4s-4p or 4s-3p configuration? The best method is to spot weld them, but you either need a professional spot welder or make your own capacitive discharge welder which will still cost you $$. Soldering them is possible but not recommended due to the method of prolonged heat transfer and reliability.

->I gathered that you wanted to wrap 26650 cells for this pack in carbon fiber? How are you electrically isolating them as carbon fiber will conduct? If any salt water finds a way in there (and it will!) what do you think will happen...

->Who is going to create the low voltage protection logic circuit with isolation switch - are you using an off the shelf model or fabricating it yourself? This will need to be a solid component as a false positive will put you dead in the water - we will need to know confidently that you have tested this in ALL conditions commonly ridden!

->I see you have mentioned the low voltage alarm - have you ever used one of these? I have and they are cheaply fabricated 90% of the time and I've gotten plenty of false positives as it measures each cells voltage and if any cell is bad is too low it throws a red light and buzzes - however after attaching my fluke to the balance cable the indicated cell was fine, and my balance charger agreed! I've attempted to use them in high powered light assemblies that run off lipo cells to warn the user but the false positives and nature of light use (either bike riding or pedestrian use) necessitated reliability over annoyance. They are also loud as :):):):) and equally annoying (they are meant to be though) but you can't exactly do anything about a low battery out on the water - you need a voltage indicator with some type of easily identifiable universal scale, may it be an RGB led that uses 3 PWM circuits to change color or a set of 3 or 4 led's that indicates power level like a battery bar meter on your phone. You mentioned something like this or someone else did in one of your posts.

->I think you and jMike may be onto something with the prismatic cells however the ~9 inch length is not desirable and getting custom cells made requires extremely large volumes to be ordered if you want them ESR matched - which is typically a good thing with battery packs. I interviewed with a company using them in deep see submersibles (10,000ft) and they were working on a robust backup battery for Apache chopper's navigation system. The deep sea unit was encased in a polyurethane block while the Apache unit had an aluminum case around said block for puncture resistance.
We may be utilizing them [prismatic cells] in our school's formula SAE electric race car this year as they have excellent power density if you can deal with the length and width.

Reply if you want, but if you think of something else to say within a day or less after posting the reply - please use the EDIT button - it's there for a reason!

After seeing the pictures from superjetjim - it seems that there is a great amount of improvement that can be done on these batteries, just need some solid ideas...
ok, i apologize for the massive amount of posts.

i have not done carbon fiber layup a lot, and i guess if i am going to have someone invest, i am at least going to need a prototype, as you suggest. i can make a casing for the pack without having to invest a huge amount, but without the cells in my hands to refer to, all i have are a website's professed dimensions. the visual of the pack casing would be the biggest convincing factor of the size of the project. i am sure that i can save up enough money to at least make a casing for you to see. the casing would be made with epoxy and sealed inside and out with the sealant

as far as the $300, that is cost for everything. i wasn't asking for it to purchase the items, i was more trying to convey the total investment in the new battery. maybe i didn't express myself very well ( i have Asperger's syndrome, so expression is difficult for me, unless i know exactly what i am going to say beforehand, hence all of the posts) i work with Carbon Fiber Reinforced Plastic a lot at work, and it has approximately 300,000 ohm resistance, so there is *some* conductance, but not a lot. i gave dimensions of the final size of the battery, but i do suppose a visual will be more convincing.

as far as many parallel configuration, it is not as necessary for capacity, as the prismatic cells are very large to begin with ( 20AH) and can handle 300 CCA (if that is a momentary or 'burst' figure, i am not sure) but it is even easier with these cells. if you want a 4s 2p, you put pairs of cells together in P format by soldering ( yes, tabs are best soldered, as LiPo packs that have the same prismatic cell type as the ones i showed solder exclusively ( i know this because i have 16 LiPo packs from various makers and have had to dispose of them, so i took off the shrinkwrap of the softcase and split the hardcase packs to see the configuration) and then solder the series sets. for a 3p or more configuration ( a 4p configuration will have 80AH capacity and be in excess of 5 inches thick and be able to handle 1200 CCA ( the marine Lead Acid battery i have as a field power supply for my LiPo charger has a 75AH capacity and weighs 35 lbs or so and is 10" x 7" x 9") you would be using a soldering bar ( one that has cutouts for the tabs to poke through to solder to)

i discovered the edit button yesterday or you all would have seen maybe 7 more posts than i already have


i would be using a very accurate LVA ( i have tested it against my charger and it is the same as what the LVA measures). the reason i chose the one i did was because of the favorable reviews it got, its accuracy and its rather loud alarm. ( loud may be insufficient on a running ski) there are other options, like one that can be manufactured to integrate a handlebar mount so you can gather battery condition at a glance (more of an idea than anything i have seen)

waterproofing would be done with Flexseal or Plastidip ( i have used plastidip to waterproof my LiPos for my RC trucks with 100% success. to test it, i submerged the lipo in salt water, making sure the leads were not submerged or i would start electrolyzing the water and making a very dangerous (HHO GAS!!!) situation.

Hybrid Car maker Hyundai (from what i have read) uses the prismatic cells in their Sonata Hybrid. they have a 250,000 mile warranty and are soldered. i watched a "factory made: Lithium-iron batteries" episode, and they use soldering for their series sets, and then bolt together the parallel sets and put it all in a rather large aluminum box that has 2 layers with concrete in between the layers (for fire safety). their batteries have a heating element about every 4 cells to make sure the pack performs well in very cold (lower than 40F) climates.

i didn't suggest wrapping the 26650 cells with carbon fiber. the Ballistic batteries would be better if they were encased with adhesive or caulking. doing that would make repair either impractical or impossible, depending on what they would use to immobilize the cells within the box they have. the sole reason for the 26650 cells to have 2p, 3p or 4p is because they have a very small capacity of 2300 (M1A) or 2500 (M1B) MAH and cannot sustain more than 60A (50A for the M1B) for longer than 10 seconds

the reason Ballistic's Battery failed is because the outer ( the ones along the wall of the casing) were the only ones glued in. the rest of the cells were only restrained by the copper sheets that they were (badly) spot welded to. people that have had good luck have either gotten newer batteries that have more robust construction, or simply haven't done flips like the one that failed superjetjim.
 
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Mattio - since your experience with composite layup is somewhat limited - that would be a good starting point as that will be the main structural element to your design.

You do not need $300 to make a case prototype, not even close! Get the dimensions of the 26650 cells (If you are using prismatic cells, just duct tape sheets of cardboard together and skip the next sentence!), which are common place now. Make some dummie cells out of wooden 1" dowels wrapped in duct tape if you want to be uber ghetto, or you could use 3/4" PVC as that has an O.D. of 1.05" (where 26650 cells have an O.D. of 1.03") and while your at the big box store (home depot) get some bondo brand polyester resin and fiberglass sheet. IF you want to use a psuedo epoxy resin, get the 15 minute epoxy they cell in little containers. Your looking at around $20 in prototyping materials at that point.

The electronics are pretty simple - its just making them more robust we are after. That is going to be accomplished by a better physical packaging design hopefully, or at least the package will be a large portion of it's success. You can now demonstrate your package with this. If you want to replicate the battery terminals mosey on over to the hardware isle and pick up some bolts. You can make a pretty convincing prototype with about $25 worth of capital sans electronics. If you can't afford the vacuum sealer just yet for vacuum bag layup, head on over to a bike shop and buy a bike pump, here's a more complete example:

"Ghetto" vacuum bagging
http://www.instructables.com/id/Vacuum-bagging-basics./#step1

"Ghetto" vacuum pump
http://www.instructables.com/id/make-a-manual-vacuum-pump-for-under-%2420-by-convert/step5/remove-the-check-valve-parts-from-the-hose-connect/

"Ghetto" vacuum bag supplies
http://www2.swaylocks.com/forums/inexpensive-or-reusable-vacuum-bagging-products

So hopefully with $50 now, you can make a nice prototype of your case. This will get you a lot more attention and closer to the funding you need for the version that will include the 26650 cells or the prismatic cells and LVA.
 
So this is now the Ballistic battery 'ripoff' thread? It looks to me that thier warranty has been as good as any other battery manufacturers,I have one in a motorcycle and one in my Rickter and the size and weight savings is awesome. I guess I should cross my fingers but so far these batteries (8cell and a 12) have been top notch for me!
I think Mattio79 should start his own battery thread if he wants to jack on another legit company's product, has asked for $300 sooo many times and not one fish has bit yet, read the forum a bit deeper and you may find that under the seat isnt going to work well either!
He's not really jacking a legit company's product. Some of us are tired of breaking cells. Ive wrecked 3 this year and Turner's wrecked 1 so far. It sucks when you don't want to try backflips for fear of shattering another battery
 
Sure, OK! I am sure Ballistic is thrilled to give warranty to anybody here seeing as their product is chopped/cut and full discussion of copying to make better is on this forum. Maxxx has taken alot of heat for similar practices but he didn't do it as a group or in an open forum, plus he managed to not beg an unknown group for the funding.
Maybe your batteries failed, but as a business owner I was just finding this very unprofessional, just my opinion which I felt like voicing, carry on!
 
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Matt_E

steals hub caps from cars
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As a customer, I find it abhorrent that Ballistic can't figure out how to make a reliable product.
 
badvinny - If a company is selling a product that has an inferior design, the customer or customer base has every right to point it out. If anything, our chatter and banter will help promote a "Evo 3" or whatever they want to call the next generation of battery that incorporates improvements discussed on this board. Why do you think the evo2 came out in the first place? -> The original design did not incorporate a balance charge port and they included it in the "Evo 2" to save their asses because unbalanced lipo's are as good as dead if used for any prolonged amount of time.
 
If you were in discussion with Ballistic I would have said nothing, and you can make your own better battery as many company's do, I am sure they have cut the competitions battery open before also but we're smart enough to do it behind closed doors. All this talk about inferior designs, what other batteries/products have shown 100%reliability, why not use it then? Regardless, as I said "I" found it very unprofessional to make a 3 Page discussion on ripping off thier design not to help them improve.

QUOTE=Mobile Chernobyl;1344921]badvinny - If a company is selling a product that has an inferior design, the customer or customer base has every right to point it out. If anything, our chatter and banter will help promote a "Evo 3" or whatever they want to call the next generation of battery that incorporates improvements discussed on this board. Why do you think the evo2 came out in the first place? -> The original design did not incorporate a balance charge port and they included it in the "Evo 2" to save their asses because unbalanced lipo's are as good as dead if used for any prolonged amount of time.[/QUOTE]
 
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We are not knocking the performance of the Ballistic battery, when mine worked it worked very well, that's why we are all looking at solutions to keep us on the water and 10lbs lighter. But failing after after 2 rides ( two batteries failed on me, 400$ out of pocket on small broken spot weld connectors between the cells ) I wasn't going to be satisfied with another warranty replacement and started looking at modifications to make the pack more robust myself. The thread got derailed, as they often do, but as I see it we (me) the consumer was the one who cut open the pack, which I once bought can do as I like. I originally did it to see if I could fix the battery myself, not to hack and copy.

I agree if Mattio is going to make his own battery pack then a new thread is needed but if his use of the reply button is any indication he's not a 'regular poster' and probably was not aware of the guidelines. And it was not Mattio who dissected the pack, he only offered another solution, a very different kind of battery all together, not in anyway ripping off Ballistic, who themselves did not invent these batteries either, only came up with their own case and slapped a ballistic sticker on the balance charge they sell from another retailer.
 

Crab

thanks darin...noswad!
Location
Seattle
I will take a portion of the blame here if someone wants to point fingers, I suggested Matt post up after I showed him the pictures of disected ballistics, he is not a ski rider and just had some ideas how we could perhaps make a battery that was specific to our sport.
 
So far they're being very uncooperative and telling me that my load is too big.
Anyone wanna pm me that president's contact info?

Hi guys, Im new here and not into jet skis but into motorcycles. I came across this thread while searching about ballistic batteries. I have on here that was 2 weeks old and melted into a blob of plastic, needless to say I am less than pleased. I have been trying to contact Ballistic about this for a week now and I cannot get a response from either phone or email. Seems they have turned off their phones so you cant actually talk to anyone and can only leave a voice mail. If someone could send me Jeffre's contact info that would be much appreciated as I would like to get this resolved!

Thanks
 
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