DISCONTINUING THE SUPERJET????

Jhucke

Jhucke

Location
Wisconsin
Carrera911 said:
Just because something is a newer design doesn't mean it's an improvement. There's tons of manufacturers who have been doing R&D on 2 strokes and still producing them. KTM, Rotax and outboards like Mercury. Unfortunately they're also going with direct injection and complex computers. They run clean and make good power, it just comes back to cost and complexity. If you're the kind of guy who buys something new and sells it in a few years, it doesn't matter to you. But generally it is planned obsolescence and the machine is quickly worth less than the cost of repair parts and labor. Look at the old DI sea doos and other skis, they're almost worthless to begin with, and as soon as any part of the computer system or DI fails, it's scrap. Cars have been going towards DI for the last 10- 15 years. Look at say a 2008 BMW that cost $90k when new. It's now worth almost 15k or less. At 80-120k miles, carbon builds up in the intake and valves and the head needs to be pulled for media blasting. That job is now half the value of the car and it's scrapped. How's that progress? Another probably 5-10k of the new cost added for the DI system when new, and now an otherwise good car is scrapped. All in the name of maybe 1/10th an mpg and keeping the tree huggers happy.

Don't get me started on all the other emissions garbage, especially the new diesels.

You guys know the fixed steer model is already out?
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Yeah people say and claim obsolescence on anything that has ever broken, but it comes down to the designed life cycle. Engineers are told to design based on what the financial department says is feasible. If it was up to the engineer, no one would be able to afford anything but it would last a lot longer.

Fair concern about DI, which is obviously your biggest issue with all this. I'm not even sure if the TR-1 is DI. Either way, you can't really expect yamaha to begin developing clean 2t tech on the model that makes yamaha the lowest amount of money out of anything they make. When was the last time they had 2T ANYTHING? Had to have been years ago.

Agreed on tree hugger crap. Don't vote liberal this election folks, were gonna be biking everywhere before you know it.
 
Fulltilt

Fulltilt

Location
AZ
Ski-Doo just came out with a 165hp 850 twin 2 stroke turbo for the sleds. That engine in a sport boat or standup would be a lot of fun. The turbo has a newly designed intake system to get rid of turbo lag but the turbo itself is mostly to help with atlitude but I'm sure it could be modified. Too bad Yamaha didn't keep the 2 stroke SuperJet and make a fourstroke stand up at the same time. Everybody would be happy then...................except the environmentalists.
 
Quinc

Quinc

Buy a Superjet
Location
California
Fulltilt said:
Ski-Doo just came out with a 165hp 850 twin 2 stroke turbo for the sleds. That engine in a sport boat or standup would be a lot of fun.
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When is a builder going to make a ski specific cnc cylinder to run these engines in a ski! :D

Sled guys have used polaris watercraft cases to build out 200+ hp snowmobile engines.
 
Carrera911

Carrera911

Location
Cumming, Georgia
Most of my issue on the new stuff is just with the computers. At least cars have the standardized OBD II port where you can get most of your info without a factory computer. Powersports and other industries, not so much. On a lot of this new stuff it's almost impossible to just find the problem without the right factory tools. Even if you can, a lot of times the part has to be calibrated etc to the machine using the computer. It essentially limits who can work on them to the stealerships, eliminating most third party shops and almost every diy guy from working on it. Ok its misfiring. What is it, the lift pump, high pressure fuel pump (thousands of psi), injectors (very expensive btw), cam position sensor failure, throttle body position sensor. The list goes on. It's not a Sea Doo, but lose your lanyard? There goes at least $100. I saw a guy at the ramp once that couldn't start the ski because of a fault with the lanyard.

Or Joe idiot leaves ethanol in it for a year or two. It won't simply take 1 or 2 carb kits to get it back going.

I was curious, so here's some current prices for TR1 engine parts:
coil packs (3): $221 ea
ECU: $1150
complete wire harness: $630
cam position sensor: $113
temp sensor: $115
fuel pump compressor: $585
fuel sender assy: $262
throttle body assy: $630
injectors (3): $85 ea
fuel pressure sensor : $130

These parts may last a decent bit in fresh water, but 10 years in salt I'm not so sure.

John Deere is facing a class action lawsuit right now for right to repair. Farmers are pissed they have to take their equipment to the dealer every time something happens. No way to even buy the proper equipment from them, regardless of the price.

I know I'm harping on the 4T a lot. Hell I'm a young guy and all my buddies hate 2 strokes. They also don't work on their own stuff, nor have they had to pay for any major maintenance. I could live with all the other problems, but regardless the HP to weight / size isn't close and I certainly don't want something 2 feet longer and 100 pounds heavier for anything but maybe straight line and buoys.
 
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E350

E350

Site Supporter
Location
Sacramento Delta
1995 Ford Bronco. 2002 E350 7.3 PSD. Because they are old enough, on ebay, you can buy the NGS (New Generation Star) dealership computer and appropriate card to diagnose them. I love computers in vehicles when the only thing they do is control fuel injection and engine timing. They are easier to work on with the correct diagnostic equipment than a points ignition for me. Same with my wife's 2000 Dodge Durango. BTW, I love this guy's diagnostic troubleshooting trees. No specialized computer diagnostic equipment required if you follow his diagnostic tree:

https://troubleshootmyvehicle.com/

Personally, I don't want 4-stroke in stand ups, ever.

I want the current technology 2-stroke to continue.

Or a future technology direct injection 2-stroke like SkiDoo is putting in their sleds.
 
mbrick

mbrick

Location
Los Gatos, CA
I love 2 strokes but would probably buy a 4t Superjet to have both. I hope they just keep making them regardless of the engine choice. At this point the tooling is all paid for so the only pressure to end the 2 stroke must be from the EPA and environmentalists.

The 2 strokes are so simple and so affordable to repair. I don't know anyone racing a 4 stroke ski like the SX-R 1500 or others to know what kind of maintenance is truly required and how it compares in complexity and cost.

I used the launch ramp after a V8 inboard/outboard boat, and the bilge pump ejected so much oily sludge into the water that a hazmat site should have been declared. It was so bad I had to wash the skis, wetsuits, and back part of my truck that was submerged in the water when I got home. Now obviously most well maintained boats are not like this, but it just shows eliminating 2 strokes does not stop pollution. But then again the environmentalists don't want 4 strokes either, they just want to look at the water from afar and have everyone walking on trails.
 
C

Collussus

Location
Hudson River Valley, NY
The two strokes only survived as they got the EPA to average the total output of all PWC, and all those million cleaner 4S couches allowed the few less clean 2S to survive, as our total output vs all PWC was trivial. Standups are unique in that a two stroke is ideal in every way but emissions. Eventually that loophole ran out, so the SJ became "competition only". The issue of enviros closing all places to ride has been fought and mostly lost by snow machine, trail bikers, and the 4wd jeep folks. The enviro folks are better organized and most of the Park Service not very secretly works with them. I'm still pissed at Kawasaki for making the first 550's so loud...annoying lake house owners all of whom knew where the Town Hall Meetings are.

The water is one of the only places left....and I'm lucky the Hudson River is the I-95 of waterways, so my ride spot has oil tankers going by...all day, so even our local enviro-wacks can't do much.
 
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E350

E350

Site Supporter
Location
Sacramento Delta
Just a head's up. 2-strokes are not outlawed most places in California. However, some lakes, like Lake Tahoe, only allow direct injection 2-strokes.

Again, adapting a 2-stroke direct injection SkiDoo sled engine to a standup would be a game changer for our sport.
 
Mobile Chernobyl

Mobile Chernobyl

Location
1 Mile High in Colorado
E350 said:
Just a head's up. 2-strokes are not outlawed most places in California. However, some lakes, like Lake Tahoe, only allow direct injection 2-strokes.

Again, adapting a 2-stroke direct injection SkiDoo sled engine to a standup would be a game changer for our sport.
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I wonder if transfer port injection (TPI) is a possible add on for 2 stroke engines like the 701? TPI is how KTM and Husqvarna are getting their 2 stroke dirt bikes homologated into the USA right now. Their using fuel injectors to shoot straight gas into the transfer port paths then using an oil pump system and atomizing nozzle to inject oil into the throttle body where the air takes it into the engine for lubrication. Both systems are (theoretically) independently adjustable to hit EPA targets.
 
mbrick

mbrick

Location
Los Gatos, CA
Mobile Chernobyl said:
I wonder if transfer port injection (TPI) is a possible add on for 2 stroke engines like the 701? TPI is how KTM and Husqvarna are getting their 2 stroke dirt bikes homologated into the USA right now. Their using fuel injectors to shoot straight gas into the transfer port paths then using an oil pump system and atomizing nozzle to inject oil into the throttle body where the air takes it into the engine for lubrication. Both systems are (theoretically) independently adjustable to hit EPA targets.
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I thought this was designed for EURO4/etc and not necessarily the US. We aren't the biggest market for them as far as I know. They also aren't injecting the oil directly on the crank like snowmobiles so it could still be improved further.

The 701 may require more lubrication than an Enduro as well since it is WOT much longer. KTM hasn't added the TPI + oil injection to motocross bikes yet.

I think CA for example has a ban date on the books for all new 2 stroke motorcycles. So TPI is not going to get past that.

It should certainly possible to add TPI to a 701 but it just takes time and money. The snowmobile engines are much more advanced, and some watercraft had DI nearly 20 years ago.
 
Quinc

Quinc

Buy a Superjet
Location
California
E350 said:
Just a head's up. 2-strokes are not outlawed most places in California. However, some lakes, like Lake Tahoe, only allow direct injection 2-strokes.

Again, adapting a 2-stroke direct injection SkiDoo sled engine to a standup would be a game changer for our sport.
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there is a thread in the for sale section of a guy that figured out fuel injection and was selling a kit. Not sure if he got enough interest to continuing selling it or not.

How great would it be if Yamaha just came out with a FI 760 SJ instead of a 4s. :D
 
S

scattass

X
The greenhulk forum owner is acting like its 100% confirmed Yamaha is releasing a 4 stroke superjet and he has been invited to ride it which doesn't make sense cause it seems like he would be under NDA if that was true.
 
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