DIY Total loss or MSD TL upgrade box 270USD?
- Thread starter Christian_83
- Start date
- Location
- Riverside, CA
I purchased an "advanced 2 channel programmable DC-CDI" and now I need to
fabricate a "single lump trigger" and like many I am confused about the "Static
Angle."
I need some help designing the trigger lump, and confirm or correct me on what
I understand the Static Angle is about. Basically the pick-up coil sends 2 signals
when it encounters the trigger lump. A positive signal when it encounters the
trigger lump and a negative signal as the trigger lump terminates or ends.
If I choose a + (positive) signal, it represents the distance from tdc to where the
trigger lump rises to meet the pick-up coil. In this scenario the falling edge is
ignored.
If I choose a +/- signal it represents the trigger lump beginning at TDC and
terminating just past max advance (35' to 36')??
Or does a +/- signal mean that the trigger lump can begin at (15' to 16' btdc)
and end at (35' to 36' btdc).
Just to update the E-box, I was running out of time, so I retro-fitted a gray
SeaDoo box from a 720. The module fits real nice in the top of the box,
and I am using SeaDoo Delphi connectors for all the inputs and outputs.
The SD Ebox will sit on the cut-out (for the oil tank) on the X2's fuel tank.
The ignition coils are mounted inside a warer resistant box, above the engine.
Thanks
Bill M.
fabricate a "single lump trigger" and like many I am confused about the "Static
Angle."
I need some help designing the trigger lump, and confirm or correct me on what
I understand the Static Angle is about. Basically the pick-up coil sends 2 signals
when it encounters the trigger lump. A positive signal when it encounters the
trigger lump and a negative signal as the trigger lump terminates or ends.
If I choose a + (positive) signal, it represents the distance from tdc to where the
trigger lump rises to meet the pick-up coil. In this scenario the falling edge is
ignored.
If I choose a +/- signal it represents the trigger lump beginning at TDC and
terminating just past max advance (35' to 36')??
Or does a +/- signal mean that the trigger lump can begin at (15' to 16' btdc)
and end at (35' to 36' btdc).
Just to update the E-box, I was running out of time, so I retro-fitted a gray
SeaDoo box from a 720. The module fits real nice in the top of the box,
and I am using SeaDoo Delphi connectors for all the inputs and outputs.
The SD Ebox will sit on the cut-out (for the oil tank) on the X2's fuel tank.
The ignition coils are mounted inside a warer resistant box, above the engine.
Thanks
Bill M.
Usually the reason one chooses the +/- option is to use the "-" signal point as the ignition advance while cranking, so you'd want the sensor to first encounter the "lump" at something more than what your max advane will be (in the case of the oem Yamaha setup that's 54 degrees if I recall correctly) and you want the falling edge to be at your cranking/idle advance.
The CDI will use the - signal as the trigger at any rpm below the lowest programmed rpm point in your ignition map, which is usually only when cranking or very low idle. So at low rpms the (+) signal is ignored and the ignition fires immediately when the - signal is detected, there is no calculated delay so the timing of the ignition is very accurate even when the rpm is fluctuating significantly throughout a single revolution while cranking.
Then when the motor starts and rpms climb above the lowest programmed rpm point the cdi switches to triggering from the (+) signal and calculating the delay needed to fire at the correct advance. So the + signal is detected at whatever your offset is (54 degrees for the yamaha 760 oem setup) and the cdi calculates the time to delay before firing the ignition at the correct advance. So if you are running at an rpm point where advance is 30 degrees, the + signal is detected at 54 degrees, the cdi calculates how much time to wait for 30 degrees of crankshaft revolution at whatever rpm you are running, then fires at that time.
waxhead
wannabe backflipper
- Location
- gold coast
Mint Answer
- Location
- Riverside, CA
I am going to machine the reluctor (trigger, lump) in a few days, is the any
recommendations for the end point ,and the start point (in degrees).
The ignition curves we are using right now begin at 18 deg and max out at
30 degrees, but I want room for a 34 degree max advance.
Seems like a reluctor with a 16 degree end point?
But what about a good starting point? ~36 to 38 degrees?
What do you think.
Bill M.
One other thing. The Zeeltronic program shows only one option for "Static Angle"
without the CDI connected, does that change after the CDI is connected.
recommendations for the end point ,and the start point (in degrees).
The ignition curves we are using right now begin at 18 deg and max out at
30 degrees, but I want room for a 34 degree max advance.
Seems like a reluctor with a 16 degree end point?
But what about a good starting point? ~36 to 38 degrees?
What do you think.
Bill M.
One other thing. The Zeeltronic program shows only one option for "Static Angle"
without the CDI connected, does that change after the CDI is connected.
I'm not 100% sure but I think you want a little bit of time between the offset angle and the max advance to give it some time to do the calculation. I don't see any reason not to just use the same angle Yamaha uses because we know that works. That is what I would do.
On mine it doesn't need the cdi connected but it does need the USB programmer connected to the computer.
On mine it doesn't need the cdi connected but it does need the USB programmer connected to the computer.
Same angle as twin 1992-2011 Kawasaki and Seadoo 951 too!
- Location
- Riverside, CA
Earlier in this thread, the subject of static angle said that there could be
timing instability if the static angle was greater than 45 degrees. I believe
that didn't matter for a 2 lump system like the Kawasaki and Yamaha because
the cdi was reading 1 lump every 180 degrees (or 2 lumps per 360').
I also thought there was a need for the microcontroller to think, and determine
the timing after sensing the reluctor.
I never measured a Kawasaki before. I know you stated it was 56' or 54' but
I have no idea where the end point for starting and idling is at?
Shouldn't it be different for a single lump (2 pick-up coil) system?
Bill M.
timing instability if the static angle was greater than 45 degrees. I believe
that didn't matter for a 2 lump system like the Kawasaki and Yamaha because
the cdi was reading 1 lump every 180 degrees (or 2 lumps per 360').
I also thought there was a need for the microcontroller to think, and determine
the timing after sensing the reluctor.
I never measured a Kawasaki before. I know you stated it was 56' or 54' but
I have no idea where the end point for starting and idling is at?
Shouldn't it be different for a single lump (2 pick-up coil) system?
Bill M.
waxhead
wannabe backflipper
- Location
- gold coast
You dont set your flywheel for a certain static angle you set your ignition for the flywheels static angle. I would go with about 50 as it gives you a heap of available advance if you need some more.
We're getting a little beyond what I know about these things but I'll take a best try.
I don't remember where the 45degree thing came up, but I don't think there is anything magical about the number 45. The point is the further your static offset angle is from your actual timing the more time there is for the rate at which the crankshaft is turning to change from whatever the CDI thinks it is when it calculates the delay and have the timing end up wrong.
So you want enough, but not too much.
I don't see any reason why one lump and two sensors vs two lumps and one sensor is going to make much of a difference for the static angle. Either way you are getting two triggers per revolution, so you can calculate rpm twice per revolution and you have to calculate the delay twice per revolution. The difference is that with one lump and two sensors you can distinguish between the two sensors so you can distinguish between the two cylinders, with one sensor and two lumps the cdi does not know which cylinder it's on, so it has to fire both cylinders every time it fires.
I don't remember where the 45degree thing came up, but I don't think there is anything magical about the number 45. The point is the further your static offset angle is from your actual timing the more time there is for the rate at which the crankshaft is turning to change from whatever the CDI thinks it is when it calculates the delay and have the timing end up wrong.
So you want enough, but not too much.
I don't see any reason why one lump and two sensors vs two lumps and one sensor is going to make much of a difference for the static angle. Either way you are getting two triggers per revolution, so you can calculate rpm twice per revolution and you have to calculate the delay twice per revolution. The difference is that with one lump and two sensors you can distinguish between the two sensors so you can distinguish between the two cylinders, with one sensor and two lumps the cdi does not know which cylinder it's on, so it has to fire both cylinders every time it fires.
- Location
- Riverside, CA
Thank you all for your help!
I have been trying to balance these two statements with what I know from this
thread. Since I have not designed a reluctor before, I have been a little stressed.
Important!
Static angle has to be greater then maximum ignition advance!
Example - If maximum advance in ignition map is 30deg, then static angle has to
be at least 31deg.
Very large static angles are not a good solution, because it decreases
electronic ignition advance stability (do not use static angle greater then 45deg
if not necessary).
Borut is saying to start the reluctor at 45 to 40 degrees, and that fits the 2nd
statements recommendations. But it still seems high to me. Micro-Controllers
can be very fast. For example the "Delay Compensation" is 30 micro seconds.
At full advance, ~5000rpm, 30usec is == 1 degree of rotation, and our watercraft
don't rev very high. So I have been leery of large Static Angles (Maybe unnecessarily).
Thanks Again!
Bill M.
I have been trying to balance these two statements with what I know from this
thread. Since I have not designed a reluctor before, I have been a little stressed.
Important!
Static angle has to be greater then maximum ignition advance!
Example - If maximum advance in ignition map is 30deg, then static angle has to
be at least 31deg.
Very large static angles are not a good solution, because it decreases
electronic ignition advance stability (do not use static angle greater then 45deg
if not necessary).
Borut is saying to start the reluctor at 45 to 40 degrees, and that fits the 2nd
statements recommendations. But it still seems high to me. Micro-Controllers
can be very fast. For example the "Delay Compensation" is 30 micro seconds.
At full advance, ~5000rpm, 30usec is == 1 degree of rotation, and our watercraft
don't rev very high. So I have been leery of large Static Angles (Maybe unnecessarily).
Thanks Again!
Bill M.
waxhead
wannabe backflipper
- Location
- gold coast
The reason he says dont make it more than 45 degrees is because on a single lump flywheel its a long time till it sees the lump again and this puts in an error. In a two lump flywheel the next lump is only 180 degrees away and so the ignition is working of a finer resolution and the timing is more accurate. This is why a modern car uses a lot of lumps on its pickups to get a finer resolution and thus more able to accurately measure rpm change
Sounds like the "time to do the calculation" is either very small or not actually needed at all. So you could use a static angle very close to your expected Max advance. On the other hand they're are examples of over 50 degrees working fine. So do whatever and it will be fine.
Jcary85
Site Supporter
- Location
- Glenmoore pa
I love my zeel setup, but I’m curious if anyone has done a back to back comparison with an MSD TL compared to zeel TL with the same curve? I’m curious if there’s more power to be had with MSD. I know the recommended jetting for my motor is vastly different with MSD vs zeel.
Also, has anyone experimented with plug gaps with the zeel? I tried a smaller gap the other night just for fun. Didn’t make much difference but I’m curious if there’s any value in “tuning” the gap.
Also, has anyone experimented with plug gaps with the zeel? I tried a smaller gap the other night just for fun. Didn’t make much difference but I’m curious if there’s any value in “tuning” the gap.
Now that's interesting I've never heard of the jetting difference before. What is the difference in jetting?
Jcary85
Site Supporter
- Location
- Glenmoore pa
It’s just more heavily reversed by about 2 full jet sizes. Apparently the MSD has a “hotter” spark that can burn the extra fuel.
Quinc
Buy a Superjet
- Location
- California
Is the MSD just able to burn the extra fuel, or is the extra fuel needed?
Jcary85
Site Supporter
- Location
- Glenmoore pa
No idea. thats kinda why I'm asking if anyone has done a comparison
- Location
- Riverside, CA
The MSD has a weaker spark when compared to the Zeel, but the MSD has
2 sparks. So it has a longer duration.
What I am hoping for is reliability. We are on our 2nd MSD, and 3rd Advent.
Bill M.
Have you heard of a Zeeltronics failing yet? I have not heard of one failing yet. Which is amazing because moisture and electronics don’t mix.